Greater Immunity.....Wraping???

Hi all,

As I'm a big fan of House Bonisagus and original research, I've been playing around with a lab rat concept and stumbled upon the idea of Greater Immunity; Wraping. It would be a massive advnatage to any original research, and I'm guessing it would also increase the length of the magus' life (as he wouldn't be at risk from final twilight).

I can't see why this wouldnt be allowed by RAW, but what about everyone here, do you think it is pushing things a little too far?

It also occured to me that Bonisagus himself may well have been 'blessed' with this virtue, would explain how he was able to invent such a grandeous system as hermetic magic without falling into final twilight almost immediately...


I had once posted myself a similar question on this board, though I can no longer find the thread. My position at that time was that a character could have Immunity to Warping, and that it would not be particularly unbalancing.

According to the rules, this would be a Greater Immunity for an Hermetic Mage or a member of a mystical tradition with the equivalent of Final Twilight (e.g. Gruagachan, Infernalists, Volkov etc.): Warping for these characters is both common and potentially fatal. It would be a Lesser Immunity for other characters (e.g. the typical mundane) for which it is both relatively uncommon, and generally non-fatal.

I have since reconsidered this position, not because of game balance, but because of, if you wish, "metaphysical" considerations. Warping in response to powerful mystical exposure is part of the essential nature of a human, just like aging as time passes is part of the essential nature of a human. You can have a character who is immune to warping (and aging): just design him as a magical or faerie being, or have him transform into one during the course of the saga through a mystery path or some other means (see e.g. HoH:MC, TMrE, or RoP:M). He will be immune to aging and to warping. However, he will no longer be a human being in the strict sense of the word. But it's just as impossible to have a human become immune to warping while remaining human, as it is impossible for a black piece of cloth to lose its "darkness" while remaining black - at least according to my view of the Ars Magica metaphysics.

Ok, NOW i figured you´re talking about warping? "wrapping"... heh...

Its probably going a bit too far. It will be the craze of the century to get initated with it.

I would probably allow it... :mrgreen:
It really depends on where your game is focused. If greatly increasing the chances for magi to live several hundred years is a problem for you, then this idea will likely be a problem.
If you dont mind that, or already use a HR that makes dealing with warping easier for magi then i dont see any serious problem.

An immunity to Wrapping would be minor I would think. It isn't harmful or deadly, and it isn't a very common situation. "Haha! You can't mummify me because I am immune to Wrapping!".

Immunity to Warping would be major, and yes I would think it is plausable. Again, neither deadly nor common, yet since it has such a big impact on game mechanics, it should e a greater immunity. I would not allow it for magi though, only for ungifted mundanes.

Cheers for the thoughts (and spelling corrections) folks...



That doesnt make sense (except in a metagame balance way of course, but not otherwise).

Sure it does :slight_smile:
The Immunity to Warping results from a metephysical "barrier" between your soul and the outside world. This, though you can be affected by magic, it doesn't "seep in" and doesn't leave any residue. At the same time, the Gift, which resides in the soul, cannot permeate through this barrier, thus you cannot work magic nor do you have any Gift penalty. So, in theory, you could be gifted, but with a Major Immunity to Warping, it doesn't make any difference nor has any effects.

But you are correct, I am thinking of metagame balance (which is usually something I have little regard for). So, you got me there.

I do not think, it will benefit the game forreasons:
1.) Your character becomes kind of imortal. This can be archieved by other means (transformation) but these restrict your advancemant. Thus, I would see it unbalancing.
2.) You are not only resisting warping but also twilight. This way you do not have to worry about magical botches at all... This would reduce the thrill of stress die severly. Since thrill equals fun to some extend I would not like it.

For Bonisagus, I always though him archieving breakthroughs was a combination of skill, luck, texts containing bits of information (=research points to be gained without warping) and maybe one or two twilight episodes that left him with additional understanding...

Thought so... :mrgreen:

Certainly not immortal! Dont have to worry about twilight sure, but that just means you can keep living as long as you can successfully upgrade your longevity ritual. And while that can be done quite a bit, in no way is it everlasting. And of course, as has been noted before, a careful magi can avoid twilight regardless the amount of warping, do you claim that to equal immortality?

Yes to some extent you´re quite right, however, make a magi with Cautious Sorcerer and Flawless Magic and you can achieve almost the same most of the time.
Not saying its the greatest idea ever(regarding game issues), but i also dont think allowing it will be totally bad (at least not unless its made easily found as an initiation(that really could make it a gamebreaker))...

Personally ill integrate it among the third level Virtues(Minor 1, Major 3, Greater 5) in HR here.


Immunity to Warping?

If it means that no Warping points are gained I'd not allow this in any game that I wanted to resemble AM5. No way, no how.

A magus with this virtue would never worry about Twilight and would live as long as his Longevity Rituals held out.

I see Warping as both intrinsic and fundamental to the way AM5 works. Indeed, AM5 already provides a mechanism for being or becoming immune to Warping: Be (or become) a creature with a Might score.

Just say no.



Well, a mage immune to warping would not suffer twilight but

  1. Longevity could eventually fail and you die of old age
  2. Botches can still kill you
  3. Wizard war and a variety of mundane threats and curses could still kill you.
  4. there is always that dagger in the back to cramp your style.

I could easily see this as something that a Vim specialist has to reflect part of the affinity for Vim (Everyone gets bonuses to resist twilight on vim anyways).

The only real effect for this merit is you don't go into final twilight at 275 total points of warping or into temporary twilights (basically it is immunity to twilight for mages which is a very singular threat). My own offline saga, I am suspecting March is going to be more of an issue than twilight. There is a real interference with mundanes issue brewing. (rhine tribunal, Holy Roman Emperor is child with regents, Duke wants to take the throne and wants magic/court wizards to do it for him. Covenant is barely keeping ahead of his plots and plans).

For mundanes, I would make it a lesser immunity since getting it just isn't easy to warp them enough to make a huge difference.


This reasoning suggests that Immunity to Aging is completely reasonable as a Major Virtue.

After all, your points 2-4 apply, and Twilight substitutes for #1. Indeed, most sagas end long before aging becomes an issue, so Immunity to Aging isn't as good as Immunity to Warping, since the possibility of Twilight, bad Twilight effects and flaws due to Warping are likely to occur long before Aging becomes an issue.

And I could easily see Immunity to Aging as something any magus might have anyway, since magi can already create longevity rituals.

Yup! I don't think either Immunity to Aging or Twilight is unbalancing--in most sagas these virtues are not worth taking. I do think they Don't Belong.

Sure! And if Immunity to Warping only provided immunity to bad Warping effects, it could be minor even for magi, who still enter Twilight but never have bad effects.



After reading your posts this virtue sounds OK for me.

For mundanes, they don't get minor flaws and a minor virtue. I am not sure if I would make it resistance to warping in general or require a virtue for each domain. It could be interesting that your mage is immune to warping from magic effects (botches, long term effects and such) but can still get warping from faerie, infernal or divine sources and thus still end up in twilight at times.

Mmm that might be a good way to even it out a bit. Make it minor but 1 domain only...
OTOH, that means alot might pick immune to Magic warping as most magi tend to prefer to stay there anyway... :confused:

Thats just ridiculous Ovarwa.

Once in a game a below age 40 magi died from his aging roll, ooops...
Aging always becomes an issue unless you run games over extremely short spans of gametime.
Warping is sometimes ever present and nasty, other times it doesnt cause anything at all over a whole game. Especially not once players start picking Cautious sorcerer and/or Flawless magic alot of the time.


Rudeness--the style of reasoning I have come to expect of you. It's the DIREWOLF75 way.

Responding to your posts is no longer worth my time.



Had nothing to do with rudeness. Simple truth. Your post was... so kneejerk reaction, it wasnt possible to be certain wether you were serious or not.

But of course, its ok if you´re rude isnt it? Obviously.