Greetings and a question

[Azif]

@KevinSchultz

I don't know what's that "+4 unnatural" modifier, cna you explain this to me?

Oh, sure - it's already baked into most of the spells you describe, though. Check out the Creo Arum guidelines on pg. 126, down at the bottom. "Create a phenomenon wholly divorced from its normal context... +4 magnitudes."

The idea is that weather phenomena are natural occurrences, and as such actually pretty easy to create using Hermetic Magic. For example: actually creating a lightning bolt or a tornado is just a base 5 effect. The difficulty comes in creating them in places that they wouldn't naturally occur, or creating them in a way that doesn't get you killed. So for example, your standard lightning bolt effect (base effect 5; Touch +1) is just a lvl 10 spell. However, you'd have to be in a cloudbank (because that's where lightning bolts are naturally created), and you'd have to be touching your target, for it to work - which means you're standing right next to a lightning bolt when it hits someone. Probably not too useful.

As such, the ACTUAL Incantation of Lightning (again - pg. 126) is lvl 35: (Base Effect 5, +2 Voice, +4 unnatural) - because you're forming it between your hands and throwing it at someone.

A sneaky way (if you're outside) to get a cheap lightning bolt then, is as follows:

1. Use a Sight-based Intangible tunnel to create a cloud in the sky (Create Cloud lvl 4: base effect 2, Touch +1, Duration Concentration or Diam +1)
2. Use the same intangible tunnel to create a lightning bolt from the cloud you just created (Create Lightning Bolt lvl 10: base 5, Touch +1)

The only real issue is "how do I target the lightning bolt?" - in Incantation of lightning, it seems to be using Voice range, with the bolt itself starting between your hands and flying out towards the target. IMO, a reasonable ruling would be that you have to roll Finesse to hit your target with the lightning bolt that is created in the cloud. Which means that your target has both Magic Resistance that you have to penetrate (because it's a magically-created lightning bolt), AND you have a chance to miss (because you're targeting indirectly through a cloud.)

Which means this version is kind of a crappy attack spell - but it's potentially a one-shot kill spell at lvl 10. So there is some game balance going on.

A variation would be to use Sight range on your lightning summon (lvl 20: Base effect 5, Sight +3). That will get you Sight range up to the cloud, AND sight range to your target. Probably a better solution, if you figure that you're fighting outdoors most of the time.

This is a very good explanation, now I understand better how Hermetic Magic functions. Thank you very much, sir.

@Tugdual

Anyone can learn a potent spell, you just can't invent new ones without the Virtue. But you need the proper shape/material to cast the spell.

And I guess I can only invent potent spells of my area of expertise, right? Again, thanks for the super good explanation on how potent magic works, really useful.

@KevinSchultz

Oh - and if you plan on going the Touch/Concentration route with your spells - be sure to spend season to design a talisman that has some sort of leather glove worked into it. You can use your talisman to add a single Form/Material bonus to anything you cast, and a glove (as stated above) adds +5 to all Touch-based effects. And it's made of leather, which means it can be affected by any sort of MuCo(An) full-body change without having to add any additional requisites.

So, leather works for MuCo (animal), but does it work for the heartbeast?

I've been talking to my group and they are fine with Minor Magical Focus (thunderstorm) affect those spells I mentioned before, so it's fine and I can get Potent Magic (thunderstorms) too, I guess. I'm ok with having no Major Hermetic Virtue, there are just too many minor virtues that are great.

I'm getting tiresome, but thank you very much for helping me.

[ironboundtome]

@KevinSchultz

Oh - and if you plan on going the Touch/Concentration route with your spells - be sure to spend season to design a talisman that has some sort of leather glove worked into it. You can use your talisman to add a single Form/Material bonus to anything you cast, and a glove (as stated above) adds +5 to all Touch-based effects. And it's made of leather, which means it can be affected by any sort of MuCo(An) full-body change without having to add any additional requisites.

EDIT - although now that I think about it - do talismans still work if they're transformed? (Or can they even be transformed?) I thought there was a ruling on that, but I don't recall if they do. I suppose you could just have some sort of loose necklace with a mini-glove pennant (so that when you transformed into a lion, it fit like a collar.)

It could be argued too that a leather glove also can use the bonus for transformation which is present on the table for Jewelry/Clothing too. A glove is clothing, so it is appropriate for your concept.

[Tugdual]

@Azif

I'm getting tiresome, but thank you very much for helping me.

Better tiresome than boring. :mrgreen: Discussing these things is fun.

[KevinSchultz]

@Azif

So, leather works for MuCo (animal), but does it work for the heartbeast?

I'm...not sure, actually. In general the Heartbeast is kinda written like the Shapeshifter virtue, only embedded into Hermetic theory - so I would think it would work; but it may be unique in some way. I'll go check HoH:MC when I get home, this evening. However, I think this may be why a previous poster said not to worry about it too much - it very well may have not been fully addressed in the rules.

[Jonathan.Link]

The Heartbeast ability only changes the form of the magus. It does not and will not change clothing or other varied items. IIRC, I recall reading about Bjornaer with talismans that can transform with them and remain on the beast form.

MuCo magic only works on a Bjornaer when he is in human form, and a spell that changes him to the same animal of his Heartbeast would leave him susceptible to corpus magics, in addition to not being much of a Bjornaer thing to do.

[KevinSchultz]

@Jonathan.Link

The Heartbeast ability only changes the form of the magus. It does not and will not change clothing or other varied items. IIRC, I recall reading about Bjornaer with talismans that can transform with them and remain on the beast form.

Indeed - I just looked this up - HoH:MC, pg 22, discusses what happens when a Bjorner changes form. "The clothes and possessions of the magus do not transform with him."

And later on, on pg. 24, the callout discusses how to use a well-known magical effect to get an item to identify if the wearer has changed, and if so trigger a suitable effect (such as "change the shape of this item into something suitable for an animal to carry or wear.")

"Percieve the Change (InAn 14 - constant effect that detects if the enchanted item is touching an animal; if so, it triggers any effect tied to it with a Linked Trigger. It cancels any effect as soon as it is carried by a human being. Base 3 +1 Touch, +2 Sun; +1 2 uses/day, +3 environemental trigger (sunrise/sunset))

And it looks like it can be installed in a Talisman, which suggests that talismans CAN be altered by transformation effects. (or installed using range: personal, for that matter.)

[Azif]

@KevinSchultz

Indeed - I just looked this up - HoH:MC, pg 22, discusses what happens when a Bjorner changes form. "The clothes and possessions of the magus do not transform with him."

And later on, on pg. 24, the callout discusses how to use a well-known magical effect to get an item to identify if the wearer has changed, and if so trigger a suitable effect (such as "change the shape of this item into something suitable for an animal to carry or wear.")

"Percieve the Change (InAn 14 - constant effect that detects if the enchanted item is touching an animal; if so, it triggers any effect tied to it with a Linked Trigger. It cancels any effect as soon as it is carried by a human being. Base 3 +1 Touch, +2 Sun; +1 2 uses/day, +3 environemental trigger (sunrise/sunset))

And it looks like it can be installed in a Talisman, which suggests that talismans CAN be altered by transformation effects. (or installed using range: personal, for that matter.)

This is very interesting, since I dont want to transform into my heartbeast and be naked afterwards. Besides "Perceive the change" I should get some Muto spell to transform the clothes and such, right? Any idea?

[Rich]

Our Bjornaers either (1) Creo Herbam/Animal some robes/clothes, (2) have grogs/apprentices carry around extras, or (3) run around naked and not worry about it--we're magi by gum!

Rich

[ironboundtome]

You could also just alter the illusion of your body, and add a warming spell. I've had a (shameless) player do that a while back.