Help- quick question- Voting Sigils

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Hey- I'm in an online game, and presently do not have my 5th ed book in front of me, only the 4th ed pdf accessable. There is a player who believes the exact opposite that I do about "sigils"- the kind a mage votes with.

Are they physical things, or an abstract concept?

Unfortunately, the lanuage of the 4th ed .pdf is ambiguous.

The .pdf has only this to say about (voting) sigils:

And that's it.

"Symbols" can be, unfortunately, either clearly physical objects or abstract concepts. (For those who disagree, I'd suggest that being given a knighhood is "a symbol" of authority and recognition, in the same way that being "given" an abstract sigil is a symbol of a magi's right to vote. Citizenship can be a symbol that one holds, which can be lost or stripped from you, tho' you can't misplace it or have it fall out of your pocket.)

There is no discussion about an arcane connection to it, no commentary about losing it or finding it again, and their choice of words is distinctly ambiguous.

So, every time they speak of "holding a sigil", are they speaking of "holding a concept" rather than "holding an object", in the same way one holds a title, or a position, or a ranking.

Should "holding a sigil" be interpretted the same as:

"The disputed boxer held the actual championship belt, but not the title..."

or

"A member of Congress/Parliament holds the right to vote..."

For those who are not Atlas Spokespersons, opinions are fine and welcome, but a reference would be better, thanks!

2

A voting sigil is a physical representation that signifies your vote. Should another magus present your sigil it is thus assumed that said magus is using your vote, speaking your mind, entrusted to vote as you would vote.

Tremere for example are awarded a branch, a wand upon graduating, which is then turned over to their parens and parens' parens as necessary. Other magi are awarded or create a sigil on their own after graduating. This sigil is necessary to have a vote be considered legitimate, especially if the vote is being cast in absentia.

So, in answer to the question, yes, all magi fashion a symbol with which to vote with at Tribunal and even in their own Covenant (Tremere create one for this purpose).

An example of a sigil from my very first Magus, William Du Soleil of House Flambeau. His magic sigil made his spells take the shape of a fist, his Ball of Abysmal Flame looked like a clenched fist. His voting sigil then was similar, he had a wooden rod capped with a brass fist, which he signified his votes with and let other wizards use at Tribunal if he couldn't make it, or could even gamble with it in certamen if someone wanted to contest him for his vote.

For references, check the True Lineages for Tremere, and 5th edition page 86 says specifically about the small physical object.

3

Check the ArM5 sourcebook True Lineages - sigils are real, physical items that are often, but not always, arcane connections to their owners.

~Alex

4

To agree with Alex and company, the sigils of Trmere magi are clearly physical objedcts, because there is an alcove for every sigil of every Tremere magus, living or dead, in the funereal cave of the House. The sigil of Tremere is removed from its alcove for ceremonial purposes.

5

Thanks to all for their responses. Seems I have long misinterpretted the ambiguous language ("hold", "possess", "symbol") of 4th ed. Odd the writers didn't include a single example, as they do with so many other elements.

Oh well, such is life. Later daze!