Intellego in Latin does not mean "I know", but "I perceive" and sometimes some kinds of "I understand". "I know" is Scio.
True (even though Intellego can also be used in the sense "come to know") but seems completely irrelevant to the argument at hand.
Incidentally, the etimology of intellego is from lego, either in the sense of "to select" or from the proto-italic "to care/feel", and "inter= between". In other words, Intellego is quintessentially about categorization.
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This quandary is exactly why I put the example does the magic tell you it's a daffodil seed or a jonquille seed. If an Intelligo spell asks for where there is iron, does it fail because it's in the form of Hematite and Magnetite, so not actually iron?
The whole point of Intelligo is it tells you stuff you don't know, so it can fill the gaps to some degree. If it can't fill in the gaps, the only good use of Intelligo is mind reading, and the magi may as well be a mentem specialist as there's more versatility.
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Intellego does give you ability to perceive things you can't otherwise, but it's not infallible nor all-encompassing.
You can use InIg to know what something burned looked like before it was burned, but it can't tell you what it was used for, unless you talk to the item and find out how it was used.
I love the fact that it's not a clear cut system, and that sometimes you need to go a bit indirect to get a result similar to what you wanted.
Magic is a great tool, and gives Magi great many ways to do things, but it's not a perfect tool. There's ways it can be expanded, and that's part of the charm, since it gives those lab rats the chance to expand it.
Obviously, playing fantasy roleplaying games, I enjoy huge leaps of narrative imagination. That does not mean that I enjoy huge leaps of logic in the interpretation of the rules. I don't think you do either, since you were the first to criticise such a leap of logic.
But, before we continue, could we try to agree on what question we discuss?
- Does an Intellego spell exist that could determine the purpose of a fork?
- Does this particular type of spell (guideline) determine the purpose of a fork?
I thought we were discussing 2, but you seem to argue for 1 ...
As to 1, I suggested very early on to use a spell akin to Stone tell of mind that sits, to interrogate the fork about how it was made, how it has been used, etc.
BTW. Stone tell of mind that sits is one of my favourite spells, much because the betaSGs roleplay stones so very well. We should have more spells like this.
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That would mean the magic would give different answers depending on when and where it was used.
That strongly suggests the answer is not a property of the item, since the item would be the same in all of the times and places.
But learning what people think the item is used for? Learning that would be a different type of magic than discussed here. Intellego Mentem magic, or Hermetic Divination could tell you what nearby people think such an item would be used, but not Intellego Terram which we are discussing here.
Another InTe guideline could even be used to talk to the item and learn how it has been used, but that is
not the same as learning a "visual property" of the item.
That, again, depends on your game world. The canon world is Mythic Europe. It is not obvious that there is a land beyond its borders (or even before its age). Mythic China may or may not exist, depending on just what Myth you want to play out.
Mythic Europe is not exactly a single culture. It is a large and diverse setting. And one which has a few thousand years of history no matter how you count.
What is standard in Cairo in 900 AD is probably not what is standard in Sami-land in 500AD, and neither match what is standard among the mongols in 1220AD, or in Rome 300BC
The Art of Intelligo can be quite powerful can be quite powerful at high levels, though it has limitations.
I simply have reservations bordering on objections that the lowest base level of Intelligo Terram can provide so much information from the visual properties of the item.
For the hypothetical Rustic magus with no knowledge of the skill "Byzantine Court Dining Etiquette", but is probably vaguely familiar with "Craft Cooking" and "Herbalism", to retrieve intelligence that this fork is intended as an eating utensil rather than a cooking tool (via Craft Cooking), or miniature garden fork for a herb garden (via Herbalism), or some other familiar/appropriate skill, is flabbergasting.
I think I've already covered this. Is it gold, is it aurum? is it Daffodil, is it Jonquille? Depends who is casting the spell.
The name is definitely Not a consistent property of the item, however, intelligo will tell you what type of seed you are holding.
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The type of a seed is a consistent property. The name of that type is merely human convention.
So perhaps the knowledge gained through Intellego magic is filtered through the magus' own knowledge to put the answer in terms he can understand.
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That's been one of my key points all along. There has to be a degree of filtering with Intelligo. I consider the main point of disagreement is I felt the Intelligo filtering interpretation suggested by some was a bit extreme.
If it's a daffodil seed, the Intelligo spell will tell the magi it's a daffodil seed. If the Magi does not know the name daffodil, the spell will say it produces a plant with a green stem. At the end of the stem is a flower. The flower has 6 yellow petals formed a bit like a 6 pointed star, and a somewhat orange central part shaped like a tube. Filtering. A generous SG may add in the local language it is called a daffodil, however, even I will accept that is generous.
Anyone claiming there are absolutes in the universe, good luck with that. Everything is open to interpretation (as I showed regarding names), so for Intelligo to ever provide any information, it has to have some knowledge of the prevailing thought around the item it is being applied to and the caster.
Unlike a simple Pilum of Fire which will be the same for every caster, by it's nature the same Intelligo spell may give different information to different casters.
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And here is where I disagree. Knowledge of the prevailing thought around the item is generally not needed, nor is it available unless you use Intellego Menterm.
Filtering through the casters knowledge may happen, but that will never give additional knowledge, only less knowledge in some cases where the caster does not have the knowledge to understand the proper answer. The caster may learn it is a daffodil seed, not because people around call the flower a daffodil, but because that is the name the caster knows for the flower in question.
I like the newly discovered implication and will be using it in all my games.
Im my mind I have decided that when such an object is created/ such words are enrgaved, the sprirt of the stone remembers an"echo" of the will of the creator. This is what the guideline accesses when it is used. The information is literally "written in stone" by the creator, and this is (in my interpretation) what is unique about the terram form. It can have such otherwise ephemeral information made permanent. This removes the ambiguity of the gardening implement/ eating utensil problem. Also if the stone is sufficiently eroded then the echo is also degraded. Thus a monolith which is defaced might not remember the original information.
I see no need to invoke platonic forms or abstract concepts of knowledge as all "real world" instances will have such a spirit associated with the given object.
Bob
The purpose of the creator being engraved, invisibly, in the creation, is a rather abstract concept in my mind. It works though, so why not.
If all but one of the tines are broken off, is it still engraved that the object is a fork? Or that it has been a fork? Or is the engraving lost too? (Just curious.)
That is where I am happy for SG adjudication.
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How would you rule if it came up?
whatever made the story progress! However, it might contain an echo, but by default it would be incomprehensible, and would not be an "ex fork".
Bob
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Just because something has a standard use does not make it objective or measurable by hermetic magic. A standard use is a cultural convention, not a property of the item.
It seems to me that if you commune with a fork it will tell you "people stab food with me then put it in their mouth". Whereas if you commune with a rock with engraved symols it will say "people stare at me for a while then walk away" which still gives you no information about what the words mean but does provide you an indication that they are in fact words...
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