HoH: Mystery Cults - first impressions *long*

[phildack]

@Timothy Ferguson

You give the impression that because you have some degrees and teach writing that your opinion should matter, on some level. To me, that you teach writing and that you have degrees doesn't matter all that much: you are as entitled to enjoy or not enjoy the book as any other purchaser. I also have three degrees. I ran an incorporated arts society for several years teaching writing on a weekly basis. Does that mean my opinion of Ancient Magic is woirth more that some other customers? I don't think so, really.

The only reason I made reference to my qualifications was to make it clear that my dislike of the writing wasn't down to lack of comprehension. That and the reference to my profession was not intended to demonstrate that I was somehow better than the author - and thank you for the unexpected challenge of responding in person!

Your degrees don't give your opinion greater weight, IMO, because your line of argument shows that you do not understand why I chose to write the way I did. You choose to give me writing 101, cribbed from Strunk and White, rather than examining the game design problems I faced and coming up with a better solution.

Given that the product is in print, in a costly and rather nice hardback format, I think the issue of better solutions is rather moot! I'm afraid I haven't a clue who Strunk and White are, but being the awkward cuss that I am I'm sure I'd disagree with them as much as anyone. My writing experience actually comes from the wide and amorphous world of "business", and my experience here is only relevant in that it graphically illustrates the divide between ability and accessibility. My two most recent graduate trainees took great offense when I told them that the more senior the audience, the more they had to dumb-down their writing style. They felt that senior people ought to be intelligent enough to understand heavy, technical prose for the sector in which they work. The truth is, of course, that many can - it's simply that with 100 other things to do, they like their information easily digested, bite-sized chunks. It's not capability, it's time management!

For me, then, as the reader, a Criamon chapter that is written to a higher technical standard takes more time to read. With myriad gaming interests, not to mention the other things that get in the way of gaming (my wife would call that "a life"), this affects the economic decision I make as to how to spend my limited resources of time. The knock on effect is that the book may never get finished, and until I've read that, I'm likely to be more reluctant to buy more ArM material, run an ArM campaign etc. My literary opinion may count little at the end of the day, but in a small marketplace, the spend of each individual customer offers some small degree of significance.

So, sure: it's a dense read. That's deliberate, and I don't back away from it, because it was necessary to fit in as many paths as you got. IMO, the added value in this book is made up of the new play options you get, and the Paths are integral to that. It was worth packing the text in hard, even if that means you need a glossary to pick through it.

I appreciate your candor. I don't necessarily agree that jargon is the only way to condense text, but what's done is done. Certainly Atlas operates to a standard of editing that the likes of HERO games could benefit from.

[phildack]

@Furion Transsanus

The Criamon has taken many beatings because of the changes of the House, but attacking the text is a new things.

While I'm at it, for the sake of peace-making I actually like much of how Criamon has been clarified. It feels like a part of the Order, which is more that can be said for that rebellious, secretive bunch of grandmother-worshipping shapeshifters

p.s. although I've still got lots of metaphysical questions and I'm really not sure about stigmata. But I love the roleplaying opportunities offered by the House of Riddles.

[phildack]

@Timothy Ferguson

I listen to advice, and care about opinions, but not from random people on web forums. You could be a talking bear for all I know.

Have I found an unlikely ally in my rant against bjornaer?

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@phildack

thank you for the unexpected challenge of responding in person!

We need to update the "Read this first" thread. People come onto the list and say "Hey, X is not any good!" and then are a bit suprised when the author pops up and says "Hey! Dude!". 8) A lot of the Atlas authors post here...a good eight of us at least.

Given that the product is in print, in a costly and rather nice hardback format, I think the issue of better solutions is rather moot!

Not if your position is that the writing is, in an objective sense, bad. If your position is simply that it doesn't work for you, or that you don't like it, then such is life. If, however, your idea is that following the advice you give could have made it better, then frankly you need to give stronger advice. "Omit needless words" and "Don't call a shovel an earth moving implement" are hardly revolutionary. They are, however, sophomoric.

I'm afraid I haven't a clue who Strunk and White are,

Really? Check them out. They have a tiny, tiny book that has been quite influential.

but being the awkward cuss that I am I'm sure I'd disagree with them as much as anyone. My writing experience actually comes from the wide and amorphous world of "business", and my experience here is only relevant in that it graphically illustrates the divide between ability and accessibility. My two most recent graduate trainees took great offense when I told them that the more senior the audience, the more they had to dumb-down their writing style. They felt that senior people ought to be intelligent enough to understand heavy, technical prose for the sector in which they work. The truth is, of course, that many can - it's simply that with 100 other things to do, they like their information easily digested, bite-sized chunks. It's not capability, it's time management!

Your anecdote doesn't seem relevant to me. Could you put that again another way?

For me, then, as the reader, a Criamon chapter that is written to a higher technical standard takes more time to read.

I agree. Then again, you have 40% more playable content, so it should take more time to read.

With myriad gaming interests, not to mention the other things that get in the way of gaming (my wife would call that "a life"), this affects the economic decision I make as to how to spend my limited resources of time. The knock on effect is that the book may never get finished, and until I've read that, I'm likely to be more reluctant to buy more ArM material, run an ArM campaign etc.

If you were a player, would you prefer or not prefer to have the ready made material? How does having 40% more play options affect your time budget? Would you prefer to work mysteries up from scratch or have them worked out for you in advance? No particular answer is right or wrong here, but I'm asking to show you that I have made some judgements about what seems likely, and that your judgement may differ.

This is not the introductory book. That's not its function.

My literary opinion may count little at the end of the day, but in a small marketplace, the spend of each individual customer offers some small degree of significance.

To the line editor, sure. To me: not so much.

I can't please all of you. I've tried it and it doesn't work. Your personal spend is, as you say, to some degree important, but for every big debate in Ars Magicadom there are guys on both sides, and each of them has their own spend. As an author, I can't assess how the numbers stack up on either side of the big debates, because I can't tell net noise from the small fragment of the fanbase on the Berklist from purchasing intent in the fanbase as a whole.

You can buy what you like, of course, and you can say "I won't buy X because of Y." I don't, however, have any way of knowing if you represent half the fanbase, or are just one guy who wants his Criamon to be, to quote a previous guy on a previous thread, sociopathic blood-drinking ninjas. So, sure, your spend's important, but balancing things up in this way happens at a higher level than me, and so I don't worry much about it.

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@phildack

@Timothy Ferguson

I listen to advice, and care about opinions, but not from random people on web forums. You could be a talking bear for all I know.

Have I found an unlikely ally in my rant against bjornaer?

I like the new Bjornaer. I gave some versions of what I do with them back in SH magazine, years ago, and mostly I use them as a sort of Wolf Madonna cult. Actually...I can use the Wolf Madonna for other things now she's out of the picture on Bjornaer. That will bear some thinking on.

Yes. See, that's why I like arguing with people on the forums. In the last 30 seconds I've answered a PM and this message, both of which have given me some ideas I'd like to try and work up for publication. I'll see how it goes...

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@SirGarlon

But I have found the Criamon chapter turgid, full of jargon and simply not a pleasure to read.

I'm inclined to agree. The content of the chapter doesn't appeal to me (at all), and neither does the presentation.

Timothy did a brilliant job with Tremere, but IMO Criamon ... isn't his best work.

I had a completely different experience reading the Criamon chapter (and I don't believe that it was only because I first saw it at an earlier stage during the playtest). To me the criamon leaped off the page as an interesting house that I wanted to make PC's and NPC's for.

No bit of writing for fifth edition has pleased me more than the Criamon chapter.

Yet inexplicably (to me) many people didn't like that chapter. A theory that I've heard on the berk list is those who don't like the new criamon were the people who had taken the old criamon writing and filled the empty vessel of the criamon with something that they liked. This something was naturally not the same thing as Tim wrote.

My hypothesys is as follows. Tim's Criamon have a purpose that is rationaly coherent. The bear bones sketch of this is; "we live in a universe of suffering, twilight is outside of this universe, we'd like to get everybody out of eternal suffering into something better". Many peoples conception of mysticism is that it mysticism is ouside of reason. If you bring reason in, reason comes between the self and direct experience of the universe.

Many people who do not like Tim's Criamon see little that is detrimental in real world mystical beliefs.

Many people who do like Tim's Criamon see things that bother them in real world mystical beliefs.

[phildack]

@Erik Tyrrell

My hypothesys is as follows. Tim's Criamon have a purpose that is rationaly coherent. The bear bones sketch of this is; "we live in a universe of suffering, twilight is outside of this universe, we'd like to get everybody out of eternal suffering into something better". Many peoples conception of mysticism is that it mysticism is ouside of reason. If you bring reason in, reason comes between the self and direct experience of the universe.

So good he posted it twice

I agree with you. I like the Criamon metaphysic / cosmology. It explains their mysticism, it explains why they think twilight is a good thing, and it highlights exactly why they're within the order yet the rest of the order see them as ...well, not entirely sane, shall we say?!

[Erik_Dahl]

@Xavi

And all that can be summed up as: too many unnecessary rules creeping in the supplements. YMMV and all that, but I am starting to miss hermetic magtic being... well, hermetic instead of an oprder of hodgepodge wannabe bunch of exmiscellaneas. I already had the same impresion with the original HoH:TL, since quite afew of the new rules were completely unnecessary (mutantes, for example).

Everything in the Ars Magica supplements is unnecessary, strictly speaking, because the game is wholly contained in the core book. So what goes in the supplements are things that elaborate upon and further develop the setting and the characters. The Mutantes do this, showing some of the magic that defines the magi of House Mercere. It's not hedge magic because it's clearly Hermetic, and it's not completely out there because a lot of spells already allow for these sorts of effects.

Perhaps these kinds of powers would aggravate you less if you were to view them all as nothing more than additional Virtues and Flaws? They aren't necessary-- you don't have to play with them if you don't want to-- but they are interesting in that they give different ways you can make Hermetic magic unique, just like a Focus or Life-Linked magic does. Does that help?

[Furion_Transsanus]

In terms of YMMV, Xavi, I somewhat recall that you even found several of the core rules to be too much book-keeping, so I guess it is a small surprise if the rules in the other supplements also tick you off

Not that I don't pick and choose on what supplement rules to put effort into integrating and which ones to forget about - at least for the time being, which might be forever.

So I'll just see it as one of those great proofs on how Ars beautifully caters to very different tastes.

[phildack]

@Erik Dahl

They aren't necessary-- you don't have to play with them if you don't want to-- but they are interesting in that they give different ways you can make Hermetic magic unique, just like a Focus or Life-Linked magic does. Does that help?

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Erik. I suspect that any campaign that used absolutely every rule in the ArM5 supplements published so far would actually be quite an unwieldly beast of a game (although I'm sure there are plenty of people out there ready to prove me wrong!). But taken as a catalogue of possible enhancements, there is a lot there to enrich the game.

Perhaps in this light, one of the "weaknesses" of ArM is its lack of conformity - there is no official ArM campaign, and no official way to play it. Which is true of all RPGs really, but its more explicit here than in many. If no two Mythic Europe's are quite the same, then it's inevitable that no two conceptions of the Order are going to be quite the same and therefore unlikely that every published text is going to be agreeable in full to every GM. In my case, I like all of True Lineages (included Mutantes - heck, Mercere magi are rare enough, it's hardly going to be a game breaker!), I didn't like Bjornaer, but I like the Criamon rules and most of the Merinita as well (no flattery intended Erik!). I suspect I shant be taken by the Mysteries Revised when I get it, as I want a bit more uniformity in my magical system than mysteries suggest. But in many ways, given the relative age of the order, and the fact that Bonisagus' great experiment is only 4-6 magi generations old, the variations proposed by Mystery Cults is probably a more realistic presentation of the continuing variation in approach. I like the Order to use a fairly homogenous magical system, but it may well be more "realistic" that they are disparate traditions united by a few common approaches but with just as many differences.

Phil

[YR7]

I very much liked Criamon. It was a little hard to read the chapter, took some time and careful reading to digest. I liked the mystical terms and background, they can add a lot to the Criamon's depiction and in-play wierdness.

And I really liked Timothy's solution to the problem that was this House. He presented an Enigma that made sense so gave the PC and House real goals and direction, yet was so far out there that it made them indeed seem weird if not insane. He wove it tightly with Twilight, and introduced some interesting ideas like Adulterations. And he provided a sufficiently wide basis for many characters to fit in, through different Paths.

The one thing I didn't like was that the limitations placed on Criamon (pacifism, vegetarianism) were too excessive in making all Criamon somewhat alike. Oh, I didn't much care for limiting the Enigmatic Wisdom of Gorgiastics too (a contraints I'm simply going to ignore personally).

This is all from memory, of course. But the impression I got from the chapter was very good.

@Erik Tyrrell

Many people who do not like Tim's Criamon see little that is detrimental in real world mystical beliefs.

Many people who do like Tim's Criamon see things that bother them in real world mystical beliefs.

Interesting. I certainly do fall in the second camp, both on mysticism and liking the new Criamon.

@Erik Dahl

Everything in the Ars Magica supplements is unnecessary, strictly speaking, because the game is wholly contained in the core book. So what goes in the supplements are things that elaborate upon and further develop the setting and the characters.

Very very true.

The Mutantes do this, showing some of the magic that defines the magi of House Mercere. It's not hedge magic because it's clearly Hermetic, and it's not completely out there because a lot of spells already allow for these sorts of effects.

Yes, well, I'm afraid I don't really like the Mutantes. I got the impression of "kewl powerzzz!" when I read them, not of a lineage following in Mercere's tradition. And while it may not be hedge magic per se, it isn't Hermetic magic (in the sense that non-Mutantes magi can't use or learn Mutantes spells).

Perhaps these kinds of powers would aggravate you less if you were to view them all as nothing more than additional Virtues and Flaws? They aren't necessary-- you don't have to play with them if you don't want to-- but they are interesting in that they give different ways you can make Hermetic magic unique, just like a Focus or Life-Linked magic does. Does that help?

The difference is that such virtues change the way magi wield magic, not the magic they wield. A magus with the right Focus will find certain magic easier, but will still seek out the same magic. A magus with Harnessed Magic will similarly find he can use the normal Hermetic magic in ways other magi can't. A Mutantes magus, however, will find that he can wield magic Hermetic magi can't. For a True Lineage House, I think that's singularly unsuitable. Fenicil's Rituals is one thing, a dark secret the House harbors - having all the House in the Founder's Lineage wield non-Hermetic magic is another.

[Xavi]

@Erik Tyrrell

Many people who do not like Tim's Criamon see little that is detrimental in real world mystical beliefs.

Many people who do like Tim's Criamon see things that bother them in real world mystical beliefs.

I guess I belong to your hypothesis minority, then, being a combative anti-misticist in real world and disliking the criamons. I am one of those that defined the criamon differently in previous versions of the game, I guess. They searched for the essence of magic, not for the door with the "exit this way" marker after a night clubbing. Wanting to break this limit sounds less plausible to me than searching what is the meaning of magic in God's Plan.

@YR7

Yes, well, I'm afraid I don't really like the Mutantes. I got the impression of "kewl powerzzz!" when I read them, not of a lineage following in Mercere's tradition.

Ditto.

@YR7

Perhaps these kinds of powers would aggravate you less if you were to view them all as nothing more than additional Virtues and Flaws?
Does that help?

The difference is that such virtues change the way magi wield magic, not the magic they wield.

Ditto again.

Cheers,

Xavi

[AngusGM]

I must admit that I, too, am fascinated by real world mysticism and yet dislike the Criamon chapter. I believe the reason that I dislike the chapter has more to do with tone than with mysticism.

Different groups have different takes on such matters. Many of the ideals and the powers expressed in the House Criamon chapter feel, to our gaming group, as if they have more in common with an anime series than something out of the Middle Ages. The Path of Strife in particular feels like this -- we collectively banned it after two reads.

There is also an odd feel to the House in terms of The Enigma. There is one answer, yet all of these apparently mutually exclusive paths. Not only that, but they all know what the right answer is ahead of time -- that doesn't feel terribly mystical. The truth of the Enigma is already laid out for this House; now they are merely all trying to get there. This feels like the antithesis of mysticism.

Now our group does love The Path of Walking Backwards. Why is this one so different? We are unable as a group to put our finger on it, but in the end there is a sense that it "feels more medieval".

Due to this, by mutual consent of our group, the House Criamon write-up has been dropped in favour of our own interpretation, which allows for more question as to the nature of The Enigma itself.

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@AngusGM

Many of the ideals and the powers expressed in the House Criamon chapter feel, to our gaming group, as if they have more in common with an anime series than something out of the Middle Ages. The Path of Strife in particular feels like this -- we collectively banned it after two reads.

Seriously, look inot the links between Hellenic culture and early Buddhism. It feels like anime because that's where most Westerners have seen Greco-Buddhist ideas.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism is a starting point.

There is also an odd feel to the House in terms of The Enigma. There is one answer, yet all of these apparently mutually exclusive paths. Not only that, but they all know what the right answer is ahead of time -- that doesn't feel terribly mystical. The truth of the Enigma is already laid out for this House; now they are merely all trying to get there. This feels like the antithesis of mysticism.

Well, I disagree, but then I would. Sufi mysticism isn't about working out the big picture. It's Allah and the Koran! The mystical nature of sufi lies in the minute daily actions. Similarly Khrishna conciousness, actually. And Christian gnosticism - it's God, innit?

Now our group does love The Path of Walking Backwards. Why is this one so different? We are unable as a group to put our finger on it, but in the end there is a sense that it "feels more medieval".

It's less powerful ,and so it doesn't let your character damage the setting, too.

Due to this, by mutual consent of our group, the House Criamon write-up has been dropped in favour of our own interpretation, which allows for more question as to the nature of The Enigma itself.

If it works for you, go for it...good luck with that.

[Erik_Dahl]

@YR7

Yes, well, I'm afraid I don't really like the Mutantes. I got the impression of "kewl powerzzz!" when I read them, not of a lineage following in Mercere's tradition.

I see what you mean... I admit that Mercere's tradition is a bit "kewl powerz"-y, and perhaps that's because I never said exactly what it was. No one knows what his magic actually did, but his descendants believe it was amazingly powerful. Many of his Mercurian followers say he was Mercury reborn, for example. Most of the Mutantes (the Milvi) claim their lineage extends back to ancient Egypt. I wanted to convey that it's not absurd for them to believe that, because they can do things that others can't, but that it's also possible that they are wrong, because their magic is all based on a couple of Virtues that anyone could have.

Mercere's magic is said to have been strongly associated with Muto, and the Mutantes' powers are based on that idea. I still think it is an interesting application, that Mercere's descendants have inherent metamagic, though I wish I'd made it subtler. Like, maybe instead of the Milvi being described as a group, it should have a scion, a single magus who keeps up the tradition. Then that leaves the possibility that this magus is unique, even though he says and believes otherwise.

I hadn't realized how much the magical Merceres sound like silver-age superheroes (mutants and demigods, oh my) until a friend of mine pointed it out, to my great embarrassment. It's probably because the essential theme of the House is very superheroey, though unintentionally so: humble service to the Order, using one's powers for the greater good. You could embrace this I suppose, making the Merceres into a sort of Justice League Mythic Europe or something, but the number of Merceres with The Gift is so small that you could also easily leave it out. I'd imagine that only magi with strong ties to the House ever meet a Gifted Mercere.

@YR7

And while it may not be hedge magic per se, it isn't Hermetic magic (in the sense that non-Mutantes magi can't use or learn Mutantes spells).

True, it's been established with Merinita and the other Mysteries too; when a magus knows a weird branch of magic, he can't teach it to others without the Virtue. It would be neat if it were otherwise, but that introduces other problems-- like the question of why everyone doesn't do Hermetic magic that way-- that make it more complicated.

They can teach their powers as Mastery Abilities, though, so it is still possible for non-Mutantes to learn to cast the spells the same way they do. A normal magus could invent any of the spells in the Mercere chapter, but they wouldn't work exactly the same way until he mastered them appropriately. So there's a bit more Hermetic tradition to them than a form of hedge magic or Mystery Cult.

[Furion_Transsanus]

@phildack

Perhaps in this light, one of the "weaknesses" of ArM is its lack of conformity - there is no official ArM campaign, and no official way to play it. Which is true of all RPGs really, but its more explicit here than in many.

Took me some time to retrace this quote. I'm not sure whether I'm curious about what you meant by that statement or whether I simply disagree.

Beside the point you make yourself, that this is true for all RPG, and that our individual campaigns are bound to be various, I really have a hard time seeing that ArM has no official campaing. That it lacks conformity. The reason might simply be that we have very different views on what constitutes conformity or official campaign, but I am very curious to hear you elaborate on it.