HoH:TL Issues with some Tremere spells

Several spells in the Tremere chapter of HoH:TL strongly disagree with my interpretation of the Ars Magica guidelines. Is it just me?

A Simple Method for Rapid Vallation. This spell creates a fairly complex wall, including a walkaway and crenellations, without any extra magnitudes. Compare it with Wall of Protecting Stone, which is just a plain wall, and Conjure the Mystic Tower, which has +3 magnitudes for complexity. IMHO complexity should grant a +1 increase to magnitude in this case.

Arming the Legion of the Dead. This spell makes the accoutrements of an army of ghosts solid, allegedely allowing the ghosts to interact with the real world through their (now solid) tools. E.g. they can use their shovels to dig trenches. IMHO, once the items become solid, the ghosts can no longer manipulate them. I have a similar issue with Swords of Silver and Moonlight.

To See as Others See. This spell combines two different functions. First, it allows the caster to perceive through the eyes of an animal. Second, it allows the caster to "give it directions". For the latter, it uses Rego, so I guess it is "control an animal at a distance" rather then "speak with the animal at a distance". But if that's the case, it is combining two different spells and using the lower one as the baseline.

The Unfaithful Favor. This spell is probably the worst offender. It uses the ReAn 1 guideline "manipulate items made of animal products" to teleport such an item to Arcane connection range, confusing manipulation with teleportation (which are clearly different, as can be seen from the ReCo guidelines). Also, it endows such an item with the ability to perform a complex task: first attempt to strangle a victim, and then hide. This is waaaaay more powerful than a single +1 magnitude should allow.

Well certainly these things are 'iffy' although specifically, I believe the army of ghosts have the ability to take physical form to fight the living. I recall reading something specific about that in RoP:M in relation to these ghosts. I don't think the spell gives the ghosts that powr, I believe the armies of ghosts Tremere command alredy have that power themselves - thus making this spell useful to them in particular.

Pretty much agree with the other points though - stretching the limit of interpretation.

For the last spell, the description isn't realistic, because the range is arcane, so in fact you are manipulating the handchief of your ennemy... (an i presume all magi have handchiefs!)
I don't see the problem because it's a penetration spell. It's not worse than other spells at arcane (fire like...)

Isn't it possible to have "House" spells that don't follow strict guidelines? Here me out. If you are doing Original Research, and get a breakthrough, you have to make an effect using that breakthrough. That effect, a new range, target, etc, makes use of the limit you are trying to modify, right? Who says you have to keep researching? I got the spell to do what I want, I might share it with people I trust, the end. Really, makes sense to me.

Works for me. No reason there shouldn't be some spells that uniquely break the rules i we assume they are the result of experimentation. However, these things should be explicitly stated in the rules when they do.

That's got the potential to be a new item in the product line! Forbidden and Forgotten Spells (tm)! The spells in the Order you can't do yourself, and better.....

Tremere spells are not breakthroughs, just spells not as well thought as we would like. They are great in concept, and I would allow them IMS if any of the players of the troupe brought them forward for his character (nobody did so far), but it is true that they do not follow the guidelines 100%, so there are people (including in my tropue) that would put a warning sign up at their mention.



Not just you. These offend mostly regarding level, rather than completely disregard how things work (such as the Guernicus spells). When a spell has the wrong level, either too high or too low, I'm always willing to blame a roll on the Experimental Effects chart. When a spell has an effect that shouldn't work, such as the (non-canonical, thankfully) one that lets you fly around on a wooden object, or some of the Guernicus spells (shudder), that's a real problem.

One by one:

Yes, this deserves an extra magnitude, but probably not two.

Plug: Note that my optional additional variant rules for spell precision make it very clear how many magnitudes extra would be needed. (Decide what crafting total is needed, subtract 6, divide by 3, round up, ignore negative values. 9 is probably right, for one magnitude.)

I'm fine with this. The accouterments are sort of part of the ghost, and the spell that makes them solid acts in lieu of some spirit power that would do the same thing.

I might even allow this spell as a pure ReMe that takes casting requisites based on the ghost's weapon.

This combines a InAn10 guideline (perceive what the animal does, a kind of surface thought) with ReAn15 (control the animal), and should gain a magnitude for the extra requisite because it adds an effect. I don't know what lvl 5 guideline is being used here. Base 15, +2 Sun, +4 Arc, +1 req. Level 50. The written summary has "+1 Group," which is wrong enough to suggest the problem is an editing issue.

Yes. Teleporting something to Arc range is base 35, unless I'm really missing something.



I agree with this. Changing the nature of the sword does not stop it being part of the ghost, anymore than using MuCo to make you intangible from the waist up would stop you from moving your legs.

For my money, the worst one is "Spectral Quinreme". The breakdown given states that it uses Structure target, despite no stucture existing, and the spells description stating exactly how it works. It should be MuMe 40 (Base 15, +1 Eye, +3 Moon, +1 Part) and doesn't require an Herbam requisite because you're not turning the ghost into wood (which would be a different spell entirely) but rather making the ghost tangible.