Holy _____

I'm sorry, I'm still not sure what you're asking. You want to know why Holy Magic is good for a magus character, as opposed to just taking a set of Supernatural Abilities? I'll try to address that.

First and foremost, it's a setting/character thing. The character can do magic, but backed by the authority of the Divine. Magic can be a questionable thing philosophically, but this character is sure (surer than most) that he and Heaven are on the same side.

Secondly, the Dominion covers most of Mythic Europe, at least the parts where people live. Holy Magic never receives a penalty because of the aura, and receives an aura bonus in every realm but the Infernal. If we're comparing it to Faerie Magic, this is much, much more powerful. The magus can actually live in a Divine aura, which penalizes all other types of supernatural beings.

Casting spells with long-term Fatigue instead of vis may not seem like much of a benefit, but consider a city or covenant under seige. The holy magus with a CrCo specialty can heal a heavy wound every other day, with no other cost but a place to sleep and simple food to eat. The character could even create the food himself. Momentary rituals are really where this shines.

The special Ranges, Durations, and Targets are much more powerful than Hermetic ones of the same level. Compare Sun and Sabbath, for example, or Moon and Fast. There's also twice as many as Faerie Magic. I think the differences between the Minor Virtue and the Major Virtue are quite noticeable here.

The ability to use the guidelines for Methods and Powers with their magic is a substantial benefit, but it's an added one designed to reward characters with True Faith who join a societas. Such a character can learn the favored Abilities of the tradition simply by finding a willing teacher, and with them can break Hermetic limits in a fairly broad way. This is sort of like Faerie Magic's role as an Outer Mystery: it allows you access to more powerful magic, but it isn't useless without it.

Excellent points, Erik!

That's correct. Joining a holy societas basically gives you access to ten free points of Virtues. To balance that, the societas should be the impetus for a lot of stories. They'll want you to use those Abilities in service to their idea of the Divine.

All of them are Major, because they're so versatile. A holy tradition typically has ten points of Virtues, three Major and one Minor. (The unholy ones get four Major ones, though.)

Ok...again this is where I lose you...

One subject at a time I guess...

Hermetic Magus...With Holy Magic...
I am not talking about a Monk, Crusader or anyone involved in a social group that has to do with the Divine.
(Being blunt)
Does he need to have Method and Powers Virtues to access the Divine Guidelines??

Yes.

:slight_smile:

Serf's parma

yes and once he has them he can use the divine guidelines with his hermetic arts.

I got that, but you do realize that a magus can belong to a holy tradition, too, right?

Yes, he must have a score of at least 1 in both the Method and the Power to use the guidelines with his Hermetic magic. This means he must either take them as Virtues, initiate them through a Mystery Cult, or else have True Faith and learn them from a teacher in a holy tradition.

Perhaps I'm still missunderstanding you.

If you aren't gifted you aren't a magus

You could take a character with true faith and give them a few methods and powers, you'll end up with a magus-like character who doesn't have the gift. This is what kabbalists, perfecti, and the like do.

I just realized sometzhing: with the methods and powers you can do something like creating an animal, give someone virtues, benefits on their aging rolls or make them invulnerable.

Can you cast this "spells" as Instant effects with 4 additional magnitudes for a ritual effect and make them permanent with only one warping point (and no additional warping points in the following years!)???

If you are able to do this (and because these effects can breake hermetic limits easily, why not the limit of essential nature, like the Forsaken duration of the infernal) I can see holy mens with Purity that have indeed Methusalems age, are immune to everything and that are capable of instilling these effects for their temple guard or pherhaps every brave and pious crusader or jihadist.

How funny would this be: a group of 100 invulnerable christian crusaders against 100 invulnerable islamic defenders...

Or a holy char with True Faith 4 and a Relict of 4 who uses 5 days or more to create a Divine Animal permanently with a Divine Might over 100!

Damn magi indeed suck in long-term actions/rituals ^^

That's my point.. :smiley:
Well at least we are getting somewhere now... :wink:

If you want to do these things, its redundant to take Gifted/Holy Magic...why bother? Make a non-gifted character, with these things and still be able to do all the things Magi can do...some even better.
:open_mouth:

:slight_smile: Yes, I realize that....but in my description above, I was talking about the character I was trying to make...more or less a loner (from church standpoint) who was interacting with Hermetics, trying to dig into the secrets of both magics...
and everyone is telling me to have him join this group or that group...
:laughing:

(Where are the rules that say that...I missed them...????)
So you are saying there isn't any way he could have learned them himself...
How about the MC rules for designing your own...?

Cool... at least I'm getting to the bottom of things now...Thanks for the help..keep it coming..
:smiley:

Creating animals, yes. Giving a Virtue or a benefit to an aging roll, no, because these are ongoing effects. You could cast them with D: Grace, though you would still accumulate Warping for an ongoing effect. For being invulnerable, it depends on what you mean. Giving people Magic Resistance, no, that's an ongoing effect. Increasing Characteristics, yes. Perhaps there's ways to permanently increase a character's Soak or other combat scores, too.

The Grace Duration is pretty close to Forsaken, in that it lasts until the character sins, and it's possible for a pious character to go a long time without sinning. These miraculous effects would end when the holy character ascends, but presumably the Ubermethuselehs you describe aren't in danger of dying or succumbing to Warping any time soon. :slight_smile:

The real limiting factor is the number of Supernatural Abilties the character can possess. Each combination of a Method and a Power has a few pretty amazing effects, but it's unlikely that a holy character will ever have more than five or six. There's ways to trick the system, like making a Mythic Companion with True Faith, two Methods, and three Powers, and then joining a tradition that doesn't favor any of them and learning three more. If you don't spend any experience in any of them, you could probably learn another power or two as well. I suggest that Mythic Companions should always belong to a tradition and should always take the powers associated with their tradition first. That means that characters with more than five Methods and Powers are going to be extremely rare.

Sure, I can see that. That might explain why the Crusaders haven't been able to take back Jerusalem. :slight_smile:

As a storyguide, I'd probably limit the summoning of anything that isn't an angel to Divine Might 50, but that's still nearly unstoppable.

The Divine trumps Magic in Mythic Europe. Miraculous effects are not as versatile, but every tradition can do one thing extremely well, and almost always better than magi. Only infernalists can get close to matching the kind of power the Divine brings to bear, and in a fair fight the Infernal always loses.

They can't do any of the things that magi can do. They can only do what lies within their techniques and powers. Remember that each technique and power is a major virtue so you need to blow 6 virtue points for even a single combination. (That's why people brought up holy traditions.)

A Holy tradition gives you at most four combinations of methods and powers most give fewer. That's not really comparable to the 50 technique - form combos of hermetic magic even considering that the method - power combinations are more widely applicable.

Divine magic is slower. Without dumping a ton of resources into a casting, divine magic is also weaker. You won't get method /power combos as high as you get technique form combos because it costs five times as much to raise them. You can boost divine magic totals by repeatedly pumping confidence or faith into purity, or getting a group of people that know cerimony to help you, but it very difficult to pull off powerful divine magic effects. I'd say that it is tougher than attuneing your talisman/ casting with a ton of raw vis, or getting some of your fellows together to use wizard's comunion.

I suppose that he could take them as virtues.

The rules for learning new divine abilities are in the book, I believe in the chapter with the methods, powers, virtues, and flaws.

That's true. (Edited to add: Well, true as far as what sort of powers the character has access to, not what a given character can actually do, as Erik Tyrrell points out.) The best reasons to make a holy character a magus are story reasons. If you see the character as a magus, he should be a magus.

I did suggest making him an Eremite, which means he can't join a tradition.

"Holy magi can cast holy spells that use the guidelines for miraculous effects, assuming they have the necessary Method and Power." RoP:TD, page 69, under Benefits.

What do you mean by "learned them himself"? Sure he could have. He could take them as Virtues during character creation, or self-initiate them through a Mystery Cult, or study them from a book written by someone in a tradition if he has True Faith and belongs to that tradition.

He's a story character, right? Couldn't you just give him the additional Virtues and assume that he either invented them through experimentation in the lab, or else somehow learned them from his master?

With invulnerability I mean the Trancendence/Purity guideline that makes you invulerable to every physical harm,. With an Instant duration, a Touch range this would be a 55 effect... someone with true faith 3 and a relic 3 could make a totaly invulnerable warrior every day. -,-

Ok I wouldnd allow this and I dont think it fits the setting... but it IS doable.

And yes I also wouldnt allow a DM 150 animal after one week praying...

I didnt think divine trumps out hermetic magic.

In fact I think without the background-based total power of gods own influnce (and not the power of his servants or the power of the servants of the other 3 realms) the order of hermes could conquer the whole world in 5 days or so.

Hermetic magic is far more flexible than anything other. Good users with 30 in every technique and 20 in every form (normal for a 100 year old magus I think) can spont their favoorite spells with 8 magnitudes. In nearly every normal adventure situation mages are far, far bether than even a true faith 10 char with all methods and power, because they can use more than 2 or 3 spells on the same day.

And Hermetic Magic is also the best combat magic of all, because only this magic ist fast, hard and deadly: with fast-cast mastered spells, penetration, vis, arcane connections and their high casting totals thanks to their arts they can penetrate nearly every beeing in Mythic Europe, and they can do this several times in a combat round without loosing fatigue or suffering a wound... with a high mastery ability and a familiar they are relativly immune to warping with these spells too.

They can blast away even archangels if they are PeVi experts in a few seconds. Whole mundane armys can be defeated not be group spells with +10 size, simply by casting the same spell 1.000 times again and again.

Damn I doubt that any Flambeau, Tremere or Tytalus would want to change their magic with something other.

But the thing in which hermetic magic IS weaker than divine and infernal are long-term enchantmens without spending seasons for items or such: with the methods and powers, the Grace and Forsaken duration or something like Binding, such hermetic things like Longivety Rituals or Rituals or Year duration spells or items definitly suck.

Good post, Lucius. :slight_smile:

Can Hermetic Magic undo effects created with Methods and Powers?
(other than those of Momentary duration)
Unravelling the Fabric of (Form) from page 161 , ArM 05.

Or can you do this using Holy Magic instead of Hermetic Magic?

Serf's parma, but isn't it required that you have some knowledge of the magic in question in order to invent such a spell (less certain about casting it...)

Which is why i suggested Holy Magic ,
the Christians undoing the effects of (Method + Power) used by Muslims and vice versa.
Perhaps Dominion Lore covers the knowledge required otherwise.

May need the generic wind of mundane silence for spells or disenchant for items since you dont know the "form"

Hmm - might be intresting to see a "Unravelling the fabric of the Lord" spell laying around...

My instinct is to treat holy spells as non-Hermetic, but since they are actually cast by a magus and use the Hermetic Arts that probably doesn't fly. :slight_smile: They should probably be dispelled as normal. If the character calls up the effect using a Method and Power instead of a spell, though, that's obviously a non-Hermetic effect that has to be created specifically to affect that sort of Power.