House Rules-Discussion

On a related note, I have added a page on the wiki to summarize the House Rules (referenced in the main page). I have reworded some of them for better readability, so give them a look at let me know if I made any mistake.

The rules about mastery are still in draft, with a note at the beginning to clearly state this.

Regarding Mercurian Magic and the automatic learning of Wizard's Communion.

Considering that we will use the variant Ritual Communion for rituals, I am wondering if a Mercurian may also learn Wizard's Communion as well, at the same level, whenever he learns a second ritual spell of the same level. After all, the virtue does state that mercurians are especially skilled in "magic used in conjunction with others", not just ritual spells.

I would infer that, when a Mercurian learns a first level 20 ritual, he automatically learns Ritual Communion at level 20. Upon learning a second level 20 ritual, he would automatically learn Wizard's Communion at level 20. (We could also have him learn both when he learns the initial ritual, but that seems abusive to me.)

Would that make sense?

Note that since Petronius knows 2 level 20 rituals at saga start, this means he would know both Communion spells at level 20 as well.

Well, I think the Ritual Communion is enough. He can invent a Wizard's Communion from first principles easily enough (I'd say Ritual Communion qualifies for the similar spell bonus, at full magnitude), and the magic of the Cult of Mercury seemed largely ritualistic in nature...

Well, that is why I quoted from the virtue's description:

Mercurian are described as not just skilled at ritual magic, but also skilled at working with others.

Considering how weak the virtue is for a Major one, I don't think it would be unreasonable. IMO, Mercurians should not have to learn a Wizard's Communion spell by itself, ever. That's one of the (few) benefits from Mercurian Magic.

And I'd argue that the magic of the Cult of Mercury wasn't so much ritualistic in the Hermetic understanding of the term (requiring vis), as ceremonial and collaborative (takes a lot of time and many participants).

I do recall suggesting that we adopt the House Rule in Bibracte...
Mercurians can cast spontaneous spells normally, but get a bonus if they go ceremonial. Ritual spells are cast if the caster has stalwart mastery.

My above proposal addresses the ceremonial components, at least.

The collaborative components have always been problematic to me, because often times Mercurians of a young age can often cast ritual spells in their specialty well in excess of the Ritual Communion/Wizard Communion that they know and can cast. The spell is actually the least of my concerns, especially when Petronius learns Hermes Portal, boom. He knows a 75th level Ritual Communion. Does he honestly have a chance of casting such a beast? :smiley:

No offense meant, but I've answered that proposal by saying that it didn't feel appropriate to me. I'd rather go as close to RAW as possible, to explore all the possibilities of the virtue as written. Stalwart Mastery is not useful to all rituals. And I don't believe it makes sense for a Mercurian to be better at spontaneous magic (even if it is by using ceremonial casting) than a regular Hermetic magus. I find it completely appropriate that the take a lot of time casting spontaneous spells.

A level 75 Wizard's Communion? No chance at all, ever. Even his current level 20 version of the spell is a struggle at the moment.

Which is a bit what my proposal is about. Basically, I think that, every time a Mercurian learns a new ritual, he should be able to learn a new version of Wizard's Communion (or Ritual Communion), at whatever level he wants. Or perhaps gain xp toward mastery of Wizard's Communion? Mastery of WC actually provides a benefit to a Mercurian, as the mastery score adds to the effective level of the Communion. And these make sense under RAW, as Mercurians are supposed to be skilled with communion.

In short, whenever a new ritual is learned, he gets the choice to do one of the following:

  • Learn a new version of Wizard's Communion or Ritual Communion
  • Gain 5 xp in a version of WC or RC that he already knows
  • Gain 5 xp in the ritual he is learning

Just thinking out loud here...

Absolutely none taken. I just find the idea that he can keep adding Wizard's Communion spells at will whenever he invents a new ritual spell. It is one of those things that breaks my suspension of disbelief.

I'd be more on board with this than getting a new spell for the first two rituals created at a higher level. And it solves the problem of the 75th level Wizard/Ritual Communion spell that will never be cast, let alone doesn't explain how it's learned. Although the idea that 10 wizards combine to work together to cast each individual's Ritual communion does have some appeal to it... :smiley:

Works for me

As we seem to have a consensus, I have added this house rule on the wiki, specifying that the new version of WC/RC is up to the level of the ritual just learned. If Archimedes indicates that he doesn't agree with this, we can revisit the rule.

Note that this has some small impacts on Petronius, as he knows 3 seperate level 20 rituals at saga start. I'll have him know both WC and RC at level 20, as well as one level of mastery in Chirurgeon's Healing Touch (Stalwart Casting).

Regarding the Mastery ability:

I have a proposal to make regarding this, in order to finalize the House Rule. I agree with making it all equal, but it seems like a flat +1 per time taken is a bit on the low side. So why not make it +2 per time taken? That, and make Multiple Casting 1 additional copy per time taken.

That would have the following effect of the various mastery abilities:

  • Acute Sense: First time allows for the perception roll. Each additional time this ability is taken gives a +2 bonus to the roll.
  • Apotropaic Mastery: Add (2 x Hierarchy Score) to the level of effect produced by the mastered spell, each time this ability is taken.
  • Disguised Casting: First time allows hiding or altering the sigil. Each additional time adds 2 to the difficulty to recognize the sigil as fake.
  • Imperturbable Casting: Add 2 to Concentration rolls for each time taken.
  • Lab Mastery: Add 2 to the Lab Total of similar spells for each time taken.
  • Multiple Casting: You can cast one additional copy of the spell for each point in this mastery.
  • Obfuscated Casting: Add 2 to the Ease Factor to determine the Form for each time taken.
  • Penetration: Add 2 to Penetration Ability for each time taken.
  • Precise Casting: Add 2 to Finesse rolls, substract 1 from number of botch dice of Finesse rolls, for each time taken.
  • Quick Casting: Add 2 to Initiative Total (or Fast Casting Speed) for each time taken.

All other mastery abilities are unchanged.

Good for me!

My home troupe tends to play the rules a little loosely, so I don't have a problem with most house rules suggestions. Hence, I don't contribute to this thread very much. Feel free to take my reticence about these as agreement; I'll post when I have a question or problem. I trust you all are not out to break the system. :wink:

Two more mastery abilities that we may have to adjust are Rebuttal and Unraveling. Both have basically the same effect, adding (3 x Mastery Score) to the effective level of the mastered spell. Only difference is that Rebuttal is for Muto or Rego Vim spell, while Unraveling is for a Perdo Vim spell.

Using the same logic as the other mastery abilities would change that to a flat +6 for each time the ability is taken (i.e. twice the multiplier to the Mastery Score). That seems a bit high to me, however. What do others think?

I seem to remember some discussion about extracting vis affecting the aura, but I've not been able to find those posts recently. Was there ever a decision about this? (I don't think there are rules for this in the books I own, so I want to make sure I am clear about this.)

Also, I had suggested that I change Aedituus' Wizards Communion to Ritual Communion, but I will have to leave it as a MuVi20, which makes it effectively level 15 for the communion bonuses, right? Is there any reason why this switch would not be a good idea? (Again, my home game just kind of hand waves the discrepancy as "non-hermetic", so I want to make sure I understand the implications.)

RoP: M, p. 10-11

level 10 I fear (D: Sun).
Aside from the lower effective level, I know of no ill effects.

How do we want to handle the extension of one's Parma in this saga?

I started a thread about this topic some time ago and there didn't really seem to be a conscensus on how that works. It seemed to range from:

Just touch the person for a few moments (a round) and if they are unresisting that constitutes consent.
to:
You must reperform you Parma ritual (2 minutes) in the presence of the person you want to share it with, who also must have made his consent explicit.

I personally lean more towards the first than the second, but it might be good for us to decide which side makes for the best stories in this saga. What is you opinion?

(I'm not looking to rehash all the arguments put forward in that other thread. Rather, I simply want to get a feeling of what each player feel would be appropriate.)

I'm fine with this one; this is typically how I have been playing it in my TT game. We play that trying to get on a mundane's "good side" this way is tricky, as most people don't like being touched by someone they don't really trust to begin with. Imagine the scene in a shop, where the older male magus was trying to get information from the young, female shop assistant. :open_mouth:

This almost came up in Bibracte, as well. While the description of the Parma Magica ability doesn't specifically says that you only concentrate or that you must re-perform the Ritual, it makes more sense if you don't have to recast it. At least, it does to me.

My interpretation has always been: in order to extend your Parma over another individual, you simply touch them and concentrate for a round. In normal situations, you don't have to make a Concentration roll. For example, you can touch the barmaid you're trying to seduce on the arm as you talk, and extend your Parma over her while you talk. You don't have to ask their permission first; the "with their consent" only comes into play if they actually distrust you (more than just from the effects of the Gift) or are hostile toward you.

As an aside: what would happen if a magus tried to extend their Parma over another magus without knowing that they're a magus?

I'd say it can be done. From the perspective of the applicable magic resistance, the highest protection would apply.

Would either of the magi realize it? They might or might not. I'd call for an Awareness roll, with a Form bonus for Vim, against an ease factor of at least 9 (could be 12 or even 15 depending on the situation).

As far as noticing Parma has been extended, I think that's correct.

However, the behavior of extending the Parma would seem suspicious, at best. Let's assume it takes a round of concentration to extend Parma, and then some sort of physical contact to go along with that. To many magi that is going to look like someone is doing magic. I'd say the awareness roll is pretty low (6 for a base, with a 3 if it is just two magi in the room talking) to notice that someone is trying co concentrate and then after they concentrate they try and touch you[1]. As far as figuring out the reason for the touching, and what's going on, that's pretty high.

[1]A hard concentration roll, making it an opposing roll situation might allow it to go unnoticed. But, botching would be socially awkward... :smiley: