If this is ok - or would it be ok with an added creo requisite?
Then what level is a spell that gives the target the ability to shoot balls of abyssal flame ?
I'd prefer that some accommodation be included for the power level of the granted ability. Perhaps spells of third (or fourth ?) magnitude and lower are free and additional magnitudes of the created ability require additional magnitudes on the spell.
What about the altered creature's ability to use the granted ability. Should it be able to produce the effect repeatedly ? If the ability is granted to a creature with might should the creature be able to use their might and their penetration score to power the effect ?
Thinking back to a wilderness survival camp I went to as a kid, a rabbit in pain can scream reasonably loudly.
Also thinking back to the same experience, what on earth were those testosterone poisoned scout leaders thinking? A twelve year old with a few hours of instruction about reading maps and where people live could easily walk thirty or more miles in the direction of human habitation for any land based spot they'd be conceivably lost in. But they skimped a bit on geomorphology and orienteering to teach me how to make a deadfall and how to field dress a bunny, which a twelve year old isn't likely to be able to pull off at all. That's got to be all about he man-ness at the expense of efficiency. I guess I've never reflected upon this as an adult before.
Here's a guideline that supports the guy (I forget who) who, in another conversation said that there's stuff in the core rules every bit as problematic as the supplements.
RAW, that's indeed how to make the spell work, except that I think it's MuAn(Cr,Ig), because the ability needs a requisite and Cr is just as important as Ig.
But RAW, the same exact spell level 40 suffices to give the rabbit a different ability, such as:
Breed Like Rabbits, Briefly MuAn(Cr) 40: Create 50 billion rabbits that disappear after the day is done.
Spontaneous Bunny Combustion of the Apocalypse: Create a vast fire, 10,000 leagues in radius, centered on the rabbit, that burns for +80 damage.
You do? That was me, the same guy who has been trying for the last two weeks to create a design for a map that is generated using enchanted devices and animals that doesn't strike you as unworkable. (While I'm acting as if my current design in that thread is good to go, I'd be eager to at least attempt to accommodate any feedback that you have).
I might characterize your examples as rituals by the "if it looks like a ritual to the storyguide, then it's a ritual" rule but we agree in principle.
To me it hits the same wrong note as the spells in Hermetic Projects which create magic creatures where a might 50 dragon is only harder to create than a might 20 wolf because of the size modifier to the spell.
Here's a shot at a more detailed set of guidelines that don't really replace the guideline from the core book but instead add in some specifics to make it clearer.
I'm hoping to use this stuff for the Ranulf and Adelbert threads to make NPCs that are, at least in theory, usable for most games without a lot of house rules. So while, obviously, I can do what I wish for my game. I'd like to choose something that can be used by others.
I'd suggest that the base 25 guideline grants a power equal to what you can buy with a Minor Magical Quality (either Personal Power or Lesser Power) from RoP:M. Each additional magnitude (or two if it balances better?) adds an Improved Power Magical Quality. You can then add a (level 35 or 40?) guideline that allows you to grant a power you can buy with the Major Magical Quality Greater Power (but not Ritual Power?), with similar added magnitudes for any Improved Power Qualities. The animal not having Might would then use Fatigue to activate the powers?
I like bringing in the minor magical quality to scale the effect but, while practical, using endurance to power magic would/will take some getting used to as it subverts my expectations about how things work.
What would be a good way to calculate penetration for a stamina powered ability?
The Fatigue mechanic I suggested is lifted right out of the Virtue versions of the Power Qualities, see RoP:M, pg. 44-47.
Also the additional magnitudes for Improved Powers qualities allows 5 mastery points per instance to reduce might/fatigue costs, increase initiative or grant 5xp/mastery point in Penetration, Finesse or Concentration. See RoP:M pq. 41. You can reduce the might cost of Personal, Lesser and Greater powers to 0 with enough mastery points. The Virtue versions of the various Power qualities also talk about trading power levels for base penetration on a one for one basis.
So a reasonable way to interpret the original vague guideline would be
and this guideline would be fine as well
These end up as pretty high level guidelines, the most practical way to use the higher level guideline as a non ritual formulaic is at range touch and duration concentration. Because requisites are required I don't see much of a practical use for such spells. By and large it will be easier to just do whatever it is you wanted the target animal's ability to accomplish as a lower level formulaic. Yet leaving the realm of non-ritual formulaic spells I can easily imagine it being done as a familiar bond enchantment or even as a ritual.
The lower level guideline could allow range Touch, duration Sun for level 40, that seems, at first glance, reasonably balanced.
Sorry for not getting back to that. Maybe over the weekend.
Yes. Or another way to look at it, giving the rabbit the ability to breathe fire for +1 damage is the same level as your PoF version and your upcoming BoAF version. Probably not rituals!
Yup! Ugh. My reaction to that is "ok, what about a cute little Might 50 shoulder dragon?"
Or maybe:
Level 25: Give an animal the Lesser Power Quality (RoP:M). If the animal does not have Might, the power needs to be reduced to Might 0.
Level 40: Same, but Greater Power.
This has the virtue of leveraging rules for giving powers to things. Or maybe use the RoP:M virtues instead.
A fundamental problem with making firebreathing rabbits via a non-ritual spell (or enchantment) is that it vastly devalues "firebreathing" enchanted items. Why enchant a wand of fire, spending vis and time, when you can create a rabbit of fire via a spell? Now, you can argue that creating a rabbit of fire takes a higher level spell. But just grab hold of a casting tablet with that spell on and ! Unlimited [strike]wands[/strike] rabbits for you, your grogs, your sodales. Sure, you must make sure you have that RegoRabbit spell ready but ...
This is the type of stuff that attracts munchkins into Transforming Mythic Europe in ways that just feel wrong.
Even if you have a rego rabbit spell you're still relying on the rabbit's intellect and durability. A device can have more activations than a rabbit has fatigue levels, more penetration, doesn't require the magus' supervision, is transferable, and is more easily concealable.
With regard to a casting tablet, Base 25 +1 range touch, +2 duration Sun, is level 40. At level 40 creo ignem (without requisites) you could have the pilllum of fire spell with the target to group with two additional magnitudes for size increase i.e. 1000 pillums of fire and as your personal spell you could use it every round and get real penetration with - it unlike the rabits who are casting from fatigue levels for bubkis penetration.
Temporaily giving creatures a magic ability, so far, strikes me as not abusive. The magical quality needs lots of requiites and always needs to be at least range touch and duration concentration of diameter so you can't get your low penetration fatigue burning level 25 effect for lower than level 35 .
Please check it out to see if the guidelines work in practice.
Is this the same suggestion that Jason72 made 4 posts earlier and that I wrote out explicitly in the post immediately preceeding yours, or am I missing some distinction?