How does the Aegis work

That is specifically for suppression through a Faerie Power based on Ware. A similar rule for suppression by Aegis would be possible - but is not yet stated.

Well, it's a statement of how the LR responds to suppression. It's also pretty consistent with other situations that make statements about half a year with regard to aging. (I think there is a single exception to that general trend.) So I would doubt suppression would work differently with the LR. Of course, that doesn't mean AotH has to suppress it, perhaps ending it like a crisis does. But if AotH is going to suppress it, do we really want to start coming up with a whole bunch of different mechanics for suppression based on the source of suppression?

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LR gets errataed anyway. @David_Chart : So what we need to do is, write down there what it means to suppress it.

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(more in general, what it means to be without it, for any reason: e.g. if it "burns up" in a winter crisis, and for some reason you can't renew it until the beginning of summer).

Given that the current edition is going on 17 years old, this is...simultaneously disconcerting and encouraging; it speaks very well of the product that it has maintained its users and to a large extent its community of users for long enough that this can even be an issue.

Edit: Also, maybe, possibly, speaks poorly of us-the-community...we've had almost 17 years of recruitment to talk to friends and random people on the internet and get more people into this incredibly cool game and still so much of the community is grognards that previous-edition legacy errors are so common...c'mon, we need some new blood!

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Not much time, so quick thought.

One of the things my character over in Andorra is thinking about, is how to replicate, as much as possible, an Aegis within a Structure.

How would this go?

  1. 4 ReVi wards (1 per realm) to keep supernatural beings outside. Must penetrate.
  2. 4 PeVi variation on Impede the intermitent interloper (p109 of Transforming Mythic Europe), but using the "any magical effect" guideline. This would block outside effects coming into the zone with a level under half (base + 4 mags), without any need to penetrate, and effects cast inside if this penetrates.
  3. 4 Perdo Vim effect to reduce casting totals by half (base level + 2 mags), one per realm. Needs to penetrate

And that's it.
If you wanted to add a dispelling effect, you'd need to add 4 PeVi effect, working on supernatural workings within the zone. This would need to penetrate if the spell is under MR (like, under the parma)

Main difference from the Aegis, at a glance:

  1. Much, much less effective
  2. Does not discriminate between friends and foes
  3. Requires Perdo. In fact, this is much more Perdo than Rego.

IMO, these differences showcase easily the Aegis as a great and powerful breakthrough, difficult to replicate even with centuries of hermetic progress.
I don't think it needs more advantages over "regular" hermetic magic, and I believe that having it otherwise conform to it would make things tidier and more credible.

Under these, this could mean the aegis:

  1. Needs to penetrate to keep beings with MR out, if their might is under the aegis
  2. Effects coming from the outside to the inside, under the level of the aegis, are blocked, period
  3. The aegis reduces your casting total by half its level. Needs to penetrate.
  4. This is an expansion, but not unlogical: You can't cast anything inside if its level is under half the level of the aegis. This needs to penetrate, though
  5. The aegis dispels effects crossing its borders. This needs to penetrate.

Yes, it means that if a being is powerful enough, it can mostly shrug of the Aegis.

This is a feature: Having a great Dragon, or the Queen of Summer, walk through your Aegis and do as they please is, IMO, very thematic, and a good reason not to piss them off.
OOTH, if it penetrates, it is a much more effective defence, since it suppresses supernatural effects, including skinchanger

Likewise, it emphasizes the importance of Penetration, and thus, of Day of Communion. IMO, this is a plus: I want my magi to all join their forces to cast the Aegis.

As an aside, I find it interesting that "replicating" the Aegis ended us using Perdo Vim a lot more than Rego Vim :slight_smile:

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The important feature you can’t seem to replicate with all those separate effects is that those effects can’t be ignored by those who are part of the ritual and invitations can’t be made. In many ways that’s the true major benefit of the Aegis, its selectivity.

  1. and 3. would warp those inside the Aegis, right?

Hi, I took enough time to read everything, then I decided to register and read on) Thanks for such a lot of information. :v:

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All right, I've been trying to catch up on this thread, and it's been very difficult, what with the many replies and many arguments to and fro.

I like @David_Chart's latest clarification, from August 18th

I like it that Aegis needs to Penetrate, in order to keep creatures of Might out . I've felt for a long time that the Pen of Aegis should be important. It seems silly that for most other spells, which directly affect things or people with resistance, you scramble to reach highest possible casting total. But for the mythic protective spell of the order, you can just limp through the casting, becoming fatigued (but this does not matter, because it is cast off-screen) and just barely make it.. IMHO it is more mythic, and thematically correct for magi in a covenant why by definition band together for mutual protection, must work together to cast Aegis of the Hearth using Wizard's Vigil.

I have somewhat fo a beef about magical devicesstill. It's nice that effects that need Penetration have it reduced. But it's still very easy to use the fire want to toast all the grogs and set the buildings on fire, completely unhindered by the Aegis. It is still a magical effect, but when Penetration is not an issue it doesn't matter. Id like it if: All magical devices effects which have their Penetration reduced lo less than 0 are suppressed by the Aegis.

As for tings lige Longevity Ritual, I had not considered this, since I view it as a thing very personal to a magus, inside said magus, and just somehtign that runs in the background. But it won't ruin anything for me if Aegis affects it. magi using LR who stay for longer time at a covenant had best get invited. those who don't - tough cookies.
Talismans shoudl have their effect reduced in Pen, after all it just a device. I'm unsure about Talisman Attunements, but I assume they are unaffected? The staff still gives the bonus to 'project bolt or missile ' but the cating total for such spells isalready reduced.
Familiars...the Bonds should be affected, for sake of Aegis affecting everything, but how? Familiar powers have Pen reduced, but thna again not all may have nor need Pen.

This discussion seems to be settling down. I will work on a new text version, aiming for clarification rather than change as far as possible, over the next couple of days.

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There is too much going on here for me to keep track of something that in general I mostly look at as "simply working" so yeah, I look forward to your accumulated post so I can get a "this is what is going on" element.

Basically, for me, Aegis is 'safe' to cast (meaning for the most part automatic for covenants), can be changed in size with no breakthroughs (so covenant sizes aren't limited), don't need to penetrate (meaning Might level is what it protects against), doesn't harm a magus (by stripping longevity from them or destroying familiar bonds) and such. Outside to inside is near perfect, within to within can be interesting.

Anyway, as I said, I look forward to seeing a more accumulated text.

Not current canon but:

To make longevity rituals, familiar bonds, talisman attunements etc. unaffected by the Aegis without making them explicit exceptions, would excluding permanent effects / enchantments from the impact of the Aegis work? I'm pretty sure there are going to be some unwanted side-effects, but how bad are they?

(Obviously you then need to define "permanent" in a way that includes longevity rituals.)

Familiar bonds and talisman attunements are exceptional rituals that could be assumed to touch on the limit of the soul- binding something to a magus at the soul level. If a longevity ritual was also within this limitation then the whole framework would make sense again aside from these three things being explicit exceptions to the limit of the soul (presumably a bjorner's heartbeast would be similarly an effect which connects to the soul, which explains a lot about how it is different from other forms of shapechanging)

On the subject of Hermetic Limits...how does the Aegis interact with the Limit of True Feeling for the Familiar bond (and the associated True Friend virtue you get as a result of the bond)?

Of course, the Cutting the Cords ritual does exist (HoH: TL, pg 75), which short of that being errated means that Hermetic magic can sever a familiar bond, so it being suppressed in some way isn't ridiculous. It's a specific ritual which requires the active co-operation of the bound magus, however.

Edit: Aside from the implications of True Friend for the bond itself, does it provide a convenient justification for not faffing around trying to work out how your snake familiar is going to carry an Aegis token? Just say that the magus has an invitation and True Friend means than the familiar can follow them in?

If a spirit can be invited in, “given” a token which the inviting magus holds I see no reason a snake familiar (or anyone without pockets) needs to hold the token on them at all times. This spirit thing, explicitly mentioned in the Spirit Familiar text in Mysteries IIRC, implies the token is part of an invitation ritual but holds no actual power related to the invitation beyond that.

I would definitely not consider the true love or friend of a magus invited in if the magus is invited unless said true friend was explicitly invited in as well. If this is the case with a human true friend why would inviting the magus provide an automatic invitation to a familiar based on the same virtue?

Fair enough, I had forgotten that.

Human true loves/friends aren't physcially barred by an Aegis in the way a familiar with Might is, though. I can see a situation in which someone with a supernatural power (say, enchanting music) is able to pierce the stifling effects of the Aegis to use their magics to melt the heart of the evil wizard and rescue their imprisoned True Love.

Thinking about it further, though, it does make sense that the familiar wouldn't have carte blanche to use their powers without an invitation - yes they may not be able to be magically separated from their magus, but that doesn't mean they can use their magical powers to beg food from the cook whenever they want to.

There is also a difference for this issue between a familiar with might and one without.

How can a familiar not have Might?

A familiar can be a mundane animal- core book p 103 and 104- a familiar is a beast... likely to have a might score.