How does the Aegis work

As currently written, I would not play in a Saga with it unless there was significant HR to it. Here are just a few things I have a problem with.

  • The Aegis should be a strong defense, not a neigh impenetrable one. The defense of this version is so strong that it will actually reduce a great many story possibilities.

  • Expanding the "barring from entry" effect from just beings with Might to anything with a supernatural effect is a massive change that will cause all kinds of complications and knock-on effects. It will greatly increase the difficulty for visiting Redcaps for example (who all carry enchanted devices and often have LR). Your Covenant having an Aegis is a legitimate argument for a Redcap to not visit you. Even peasants might have an item of Virtue, which would bar them from entering in whole or part.

  • Isn't the Parma Magica an existing supernatural effect? It is gained from a fully integrated Supernatural Ability. Even ignoring the things I will cover in the next point, this pretty much means no Magus would willing enter an Aegis in which they are not native.

  • Specifically barring Magi if they have LR or Cords is even more of an issue. While they can leave items behind and allow effects to expire, things like the LR and Cords are inherently part of them which cannot be easily dispelled. Pretty much all Tribunal meetings will have to take place in locations which are not covered by the Aegis. Most Magi will also never want to visit another Covenant due to the potential dangers. Uninviting a Magi within your Aegis now has a high possibility of being a violation of the Code as a hostile action. In general this will also kill the economy of any Covenant who makes income from visiting Magi and Redcaps. That includes Durenmar, who would might have to relocated their library outside of the Aegis to fulfill their House requirement to share with the Order since the Aegis is actively hostile and dangerous to non-native Magi. There is little chance that it would not be voted as unacceptable since it is actively dangerous especially to older Magi.

  • While Bjornaer are one of my least favorite Houses, their Heartbeast is not a standard magical effect but part of their true nature. Because of both being their true nature they have their own special rules for returning to one of them or changing to one of them even under effects which would normally suppress magic. I do not like the Aegis just over-ruling this, especially since their special rules already mention how it interacts with the Aegis.

  • Any Covenant within a Regio will be extremely difficult to visit, even more than they currently are. This includes many published Covenants. They would be required to build "greeting stations" outside both the Regio and their Aegis. Depending on their location this might be extremely difficult or impossible.

  • The section for determining "Natives" is overly complex and sure to cause confusion.

  • Revoking invitation might need a review. It took a few readings since at first it seemed that the invitation required a Magus other than the one who issued it to be the revoker.

So this change will cause a mandatory massive restructuring of the Order and how they operate. Magi will rarely if ever visit other Covenants, Tribunals (and other meetings) will have to take place outside of an Aegis, Redcaps will have increased difficulty (and might justifiably refuse) visiting Covenants. House Bonisagus will have to figure another way to share their discoveries with the Order that is not locked behind a very deadly trap.

So much of the way the Order is designed, published story seeds/adventures, and other material would have to be tossed out that this version is a bad idea.

And after this, I would have to ask you: What myths are you reading?
Because having clean, simple rules with no exceptions is about as Unmythic as it gets to me.
Indeed there are collections of myths that are explicitly about exactly that: abusing the loopshole! The small clever guy getting the better of the bigger, stronger more robust fellow by noticing exactly how that gives him a way to win.

If you want clean, simple, easy design, there are plenty on the market. The more we approach that 'ideal', we'll approach a board game. One of the reasons I like Ars Magica so much, warts and all, is that it dares to have a few exceptions and oddities. Style over substance and all that. While still staying more consistent than the majority of games out there.

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I agree with Tellus here, and for more than his CyberPunk 2020 reference (good looking out, that is one of my fav games).

I want much of the inconsistency that is in Ars Magica. It leaves elements of the unknown and surprise in. It gives the SG options. It avoids much of the "play it the RIGHT way!" issues that might crop up.

If I wanted to play something with hard locked rules, I would play a board or miniature game. Nothing against them, I like and play both. However if I am playing a tabletop RPG, I do not want to feel like I am playing one of the others. This is part of the reason I dislike that other game after TSR.

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Nightwalkers can no longer penetrate this AOH.

I fear so.

Especailly this.

I an convinced, that a better structure of the defenses of the AotH - like that they can't be resisted, don't warp, and resist any supernatural activity directed towards the area and people it protects - is a big boon.

But it has still to differentiate between activities directed to that area and people, and powers and properties just working on and among the non-natives - like LRs, cords, Heartbeast shape, most familiar bond properties, demonic possession, and so on.

That makes restructuring the Aegis more difficult: e. g. on what do illusions and disguises work? But AFAICS it is its only chance.

Excellent.

Now...
What happens to Supernatural entities already inside the boundary, but no longer welcome? E.g.

  • A magus was invited but has now been uninvited after being caught in the restricted library. He has an LR, so would've been denied entry if he had not been invited inside in the first place.
  • A faerie(/demon/whatever) was hiding inside the covenant. The magi of the covenant notice that something fishy is going on, and cast a stronger Aegis - is the faerie expelled or does it stay?

Actually, come to think of it, wouldn't thins exclude almost anyone with a supernatural Virtue or Flaw from entering a non-native Aegis without invitation? Lesser Immunity to Cat Scratches doesn't have penetration either.

There are a lot of potential implications. But one of them might be that younger magi become the catspaws messengers of their elders. Potentially useful for explaining why this Autumn covenant accepts newly-Gauntleted magi in.

Even younger Magi would not want to visit other Covenants. Having it strip their Parma Magica greatly reduces their personal defense and makes them subject to the negative social effects of the Gift. Of course it is actually understandable to dislike someone who stripped your Parma even without the additional dislike that their Gift causes.

True. So... the Aegis covers only the private areas of the magi, rather than the entire covenant then? Probably eliminates much of the need for Size modifiers right there.

And things like the Great Library at Durenmar would have to be outside of their Aegis to meet their requirement to share their discoveries. Having it hiding behind their Aegis removes the ability to tell people "it is at the Great Library, go read it there".

Cultivate a Lesser Immunity (Aegis)? Or would that be Major?:sweat_smile:
I mean, it’s a hazard now!
How would that interact?

Lesser, I think. Since it's not the Aegis (itself) that kills you ...

That's ... actually a good question. It's a supernatural power without penetration, so that should keep you out of the Aegis. But then you are affected by the very thing you are explicitly immune to...
Nice!

@ezzelino, @callen, @David_Chart, others - Any thoughts?

Yeah, the blocking of magi who have an LR or familiar seems a problem. I’m also not a fan of those disinvited getting expelled. Also makes a number of covenant site concepts harder to wrap my head around including haunted covenants, those with infestations of creatures, etc.

I can see a way around the issue for a LR- after all it is a ritual and hence a spell, all you would have to do is record a penetration score for it when cast.

The rest however make this into an interesting spell to have as an alternative to an aegis, where the question is whether the downsides are worth the benefits for a given covenant.

And exactly how much of the power of their LR should the average Magus set aside for Penetration?

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Use the lab rules to invent it and the ritual rules (aside from the difference in vis cost) to cast it and then simply document the penetration.

But would not it have a Penetration of 0 in most cases? Which would mean the Magus still could not enter the Aegis without an invitation.

The LR and familiar bond (not the effects in the familiar bond) could use a penetration of their level/lab total. Still means certain folks are blocked from entering but most Aegises will be in the 30-40 range or thereabout and many familiar bond lab totals and LRs are stronger effects than that. It still means some folks will be blocked.

Personally I prefer a carve out of the Aegis not affecting those things but…

I see one kind of work-around to maintain the ideas about a new type of Aegis:

When Notatus created the Aegis, he had to take into account his sodales, who did not appreciate an Aegis that kept them from visiting each other safely.
So he sat together with Turnis of Verditius and designed the Ring of Allegiance. This is a minor enchanted device put onto a finger of each apprentice once he swears the Oath and thereby becomes a magus.
It is inscribed with the beginning of the 4th paragraph of the Oath: "I will not endanger the Order" - "Ordinem non periclitabor", and typically very hard to remove from the finger afterwards. The device ceases to function if taken off the finger, and is coded to work only with its first wearer ever.
These rings interact with Notatus' Aegides and make sure, that the Aegides do not resist supernatural effects on the person of the ring's wearer or his familiar - thereby protecting their privacy, their LRs, bond cords, bond powers, even personal boosting spells and effects like Heartbeast.
It took some time to get the Aegides accepted as general protections of covenants - but this could only be achieved by allowing all Hermetic magi to keep their Rings of Allegiance when visiting covenants.

This story and the Ring of Allegiance might still need some fiddling with - but it also could give the new type of Aegis a chance.

As far as I can tell, nothing changes for Nightwalkers crossing into an Aegis.
You have to distinguish between Nightwalkers straying, and Nightwalkers walking mundanely.

For nightwalkers walking, that which is written in HMRE p.118, "Nightwalkers have no Might, so
they are not held at bay by the Aegis of the Hearth." continues to hold.

Nightwalkers straying are/were subject to the general rules in HMRE, p.7, that are not explicitly contradicted anywhere in the Nightwalker text. AotH stops all hedge wizard powers that cannot penetrate it, including transportation effects. Because straying has no penetration, it fails against both versions of the Aegis.

It is a fallacy held by many that the rules as written before allowed Nightwalkers to stray through an Aegis, regardless of what was intended/what works in sagas. If anyone wants this to happen, it should be clarified in the text about Nightwalkers, regardless of the Aegis' text. Personally, I strongly dislike the Aegis not working for Nightwalkers, except as a plot device; in which case, I'd very much rather have a specific Virtue granting Immunity to the Aegis.