How does the Aegis work

[callen]

@InfinityzeN

Dispelling the familiar bonds and talisman bond feels like a change. The talisman is an enchanted item and other enchanted items are not disenchanted. The familiar bonds work like an enchanted item and can contain enchanted effects. They are also both created by a season lab activity enchanting them.

I have to agree here. There is a difference between an effect coming from an item and the enchantment in the item. I don't see anything in the AotH text talking about disenchanting. The effects could be canceled, only to resume when removed from the AotH; this would not be disenchanting and so would seem to fit within the rules just fine. It might become messy in some cases. (E.g. A mundane Familiar flies into an AotH. Would it temporarily lose its intelligence of was that more like a CrMe Ritual? Would it temporarily lose its loyalty which is now represented by the Virtue True Friend?)

But I cannot say for sure whether this is what David actually said. David may be saying the effects of the enchantment are cancelled but not the enchantment itself. Or he may be saying the effect within the item, the enchantment itself, is cancelled. This part of the explanation is unclear.

[InfinityzeN (Troy)]

@callen

But I cannot say for sure whether this is what David actually said. David may be saying the effects of the enchantment are cancelled but not the enchantment itself. Or he may be saying the effect within the item, the enchantment itself, is cancelled. This part of the explanation is unclear.

I did ask this with a backward question in the first part of my post. Phrasing it as "Did you mean ... ? This is unclear." would have been better on my part.

[callen]

Yes. I was just being explicit about the lack of clarity, agreeing that I cannot tell. Meanwhile, I agree that disenchanting feels like a change.

[Tellus]

@David_Chart

An active supernatural effect created by an entity that is not native to the Aegis must also Penetrate a Magic Resistance equal to the Aegis's level on crossing the boundary, or it is cancelled. If the entity carrying the supernatural effect (the target of a spell, for example) has Magic Resistance, the Aegis must Penetrate that resistance to have that effect. This also affects Hermetic effects such as Parma Magica, Longevity Rituals, Familiar Bonds, and Talisman bonds. However, the Aegis must Penetrate the magus's Magic Resistance to cancel these effects.

Not suppress? Cancel?

Anyone who is invited into the Aegis by a magus (including apprentices whose Arts have been opened, here and below) who participated in the ritual.

Can this be any Gifted individual, or must their Gift have been opened to the Hermetic Arts?

[rgd20 (Bob)]

@Tellus

Can this be any Gifted individual, or must their Gift have been opened to the Hermetic Arts?

important not to exclude Ex Misc magi who have not had arts opened.

[Jank (Medusa)]

This also affects Hermetic effects such as Parma Magica, Longevity Rituals, Familiar Bonds, and Talisman bonds. However, the Aegis must Penetrate the magus's Magic Resistance to cancel these effects.

This is pretty dramatic (as have commented @callen, @InfinityzeN and @Tellus) . Entirely dispelling them seems too strong. Or is the idea to suppress their effects while within the Aegis? Because I like the second one. It would mean that an old mage would not want to risk their LR being inactive for long vs needing to waste a season and 15+ vis

I should say that I am still in the camp of the Aegis should bypass parma entirely, which is a different issue.

@David_Chart

Demons and similar spirits may enter the Aegis while possessing someone, without needing to beat the Aegis's Penetration, but they may then not use their supernatural abilities unless they or their vessel have been invited in.

I think that this is an elegant solution, and I like it.

[dc444 (nullsettings)]

@David_Chart

This also affects Hermetic effects such as Parma Magica, Longevity Rituals, Familiar Bonds, and Talisman bonds. However, the Aegis must Penetrate the magus's Magic Resistance to cancel these effects.

This seems new. The idea that it dispels or suppresses any of those seems counter to certain (I believe) published material where only certain VIPs and trusted friends are granted token when they arrive for a tribunal at the covenant.

[silveroak]

@David_Chart

This also affects Hermetic effects such as Parma Magica, Longevity Rituals, Familiar Bonds, and Talisman bonds. However, the Aegis must Penetrate the magus's Magic Resistance to cancel these effects.

This is definitely new, I would say contradictory to the game as played in the past, and some have indicated a deal breaker to them paying a game. Also how does the idea that you dispel Parma Magica if you defeat the wizards magic resistance even work?
Myself I would say that effects cast upon a target before it enters the aegis are not dispelled by entering- yes this means someone can enter the aegis while invisible. On the other hand it seems to me pretty odd to have a tribunal ruling that it is illegal to do so if it is not possible to do so. You have gotten a lot of feedback which has been very consistent that this section is a problem, but you seem determined to find a way to wedge it into the game over the protests of the players.

[dc444 (nullsettings)]

@silveroak

but you seem determined to find a way to wedge it into the game over the protests of the players.

I don’t think David was saying this is how it must be but that this is how he sees that it currently is. I think he is trying to figure out what needs to be exceptions because there is a disconnect between how he (and one other person far as I can tell) has seen it working up to now and how many of us have seen it working.

There is a whole school of combat in House Flambeau based on dispelling or suppressing Parma and and other sources of MR and in order for it to work it must beat both the level and have penetration to get through the MR so that piece doesn’t necessarily seem odd to me except in that it’s not how I have understood the Aegis to work.

[OneShot]

I am currently very busy, and go at it perhaps tomorrow. Just one quick thing:

@David_Chart

An active supernatural effect created by an entity that is not native to the Aegis must also Penetrate a Magic Resistance equal to the Aegis's level on crossing the boundary, or it is cancelled. If the entity carrying the supernatural effect (the target of a spell, for example) has Magic Resistance, the Aegis must Penetrate that resistance to have that effect. This also affects Hermetic effects such as Parma Magica, Longevity Rituals, Familiar Bonds, and Talisman bonds. However, the Aegis must Penetrate the magus's Magic Resistance to cancel these effects.

I was quite sure, that the Aegis did not affect a Parma Magica. Also because of:

@David_Chart

Does an Aegis of the Hearth, in your estimation, dispel a Parma Magica?

No.

[silveroak]

I did say seem- the fact is this bit has in previous discussion already had an overwhelmingly negative response indicating that it was seen as a major departure from how things have been. It should have been obvious it would get the same reaction a second time. Instead he wallpapered over it with a revision to the aegis which was questionable when it first came out in a published supplement without widespread player feedback regarding the aegis needing to penetrate.

[Tellus]

@Jank

This also affects Hermetic effects such as Parma Magica, Longevity Rituals, Familiar Bonds, and Talisman bonds. However, the Aegis must Penetrate the magus's Magic Resistance to cancel these effects.

This is pretty dramatic (as have commented @callen, @InfinityzeN and @Tellus) . Entirely dispelling them seems too strong. Or is the idea to suppress their effects while within the Aegis? Because I like the second one. It would mean that an old mage would not want to risk their LR being inactive for long vs needing to waste a season and 15+ vis

I have to admit that I've always (since some point in the 90s) seen the Aegis as suppressing effects within it, not as dispelling them. It is ReVi and not PeVi after all.

[temprobe]

@David_Chart

Anyone who participates in the Aegis ritual. Any living, conscious individual can participate in the ritual, as long as they are present at the covenant.

I think I prefer the earlier write-up that required being a magi or being acknowledged by a magi.

[dc444 (nullsettings)]

My reading is it still requires taking part in a ritual act, not just being at the covenant. Some covenants the magi may restrict the ceremony to themselves but it means they can include Order members who are non-hermetics, trusted servants with supernatural abilities, and gives a nice way for a possessing demon to infiltrate. Many covenfolk may just think it’s a sort of useless ritual that the magi do but folks with supernatural abilities will likely notice it is more difficult to use those abilities and might take part if they aren’t too worried about joining what is definitely a non-[insert their religion] ceremony. But I don’t really see this as a change from the “taking part in the ritual” bit as written in Core.

[temprobe]

@dc444

I don’t really see this as a change from the “taking part in the ritual” bit as written in Core.

I agree with that assessment.

[ezzelino]

@David_Chart

This is not supposed to be a change from the current rules-as-intended. So one desired form of feedback is comments on what you think is a change.
...
Supernatural effects that have neither casting totals nor Penetration are completely unaffected.
...
Nightwalkers are unaffected by the Aegis.

Perhaps surprisingly, those are the only two deviations from what my troupe and I had always believed were the rules as intended.

As for Supernatural effects that have neither casting totals nor Penetration, we read on HMRE p.7, and I think this is fairly uncontroversial:

If a hedge wizard casts an effect towards an Aegis, the effect must Penetrate the Aegis to be successful. This includes transportation effects; for example, a folk witch cannot fly through an Aegis unless her Penetration Total exceeds the level of the Aegis."

Now, a supernatural effect without Penetration, as far as I understand it, does not penetrate even MR 0. If the rules are intended to be different, then probably a clarification should be extended to the section on Magic Resistance, since in ArM5 (p.85, the last paragraph on Magic Resistance) we read:

If the target of a spell has Magic Resistance of 0, she is only affected if the penetration total is 1 or greater. Thus, Magic Resistance 0 is substantially better than no magic resistance.

If there is no penetration total, there is no penetration total 1 or greater, and thus the effect does not penetrate. And thus the effect fizzles out in an Aegis of any Level. For example, a lesser purifying touch should not be able to penetrate MR by the rules as written and as intended, fizzling out in an Aegis of any Level.

As for Nightwalkers: I think they were never intended to be an exception to the "standard" rules, though the author might have misread those rules (or failed to read the general text for Hedge Wizards on HMRE p.7). There is no mention of straying in relationship with the Aegis or MR anywhere in the mechanics section of the Nightwalkers chapter, strongly suggesting that the author did not intend to change anything. It's only in Saga seeds that we read (HMRE p.118):

Nightwalkers have no Might, so they are not held at bay by the Aegis of the Hearth

Now, this is technically true. A Nightwalker is not held at bay by the Aegis of the Hearth, and can simply walk into one. But as I read it, a straying Nightwalker is blocked by Magic Resistance, and the straying effect fizzles out upon entering the Aegis. I cannot find any text in the Nightwalker section that is technically incorrect if Nightwalker powers cannot penetrate MR or the Aegis.

[callen]

I thought he was saying things like Unaging: if you have the Virtue Unaging, it doesn't cease to function in the AotH. But the statement is blanket enough or vague enough that it could encompass too much.

[ErikT]

@ezzelino

As for Nightwalkers: I think they were never intended to be an exception to the "standard" rules, though the author might have misread those rules (or failed to read the general text for Hedge Wizards on HMRE p.7). In particular, on HMRE p.118 we read:

Nightwalkers have no Might, so they are not held at bay by the Aegis of the Hearth

Now, this is technically true. A Nightwalker is not held at bay by the Aegis of the Hearth, and can simply walk into one. But as I read it, a straying Nightwalker is blocked by Magic Resistance, and the straying effect fizzles out upon entering the Aegis. I cannot find any text in the Nightwalker section that is technically incorrect if Nightwalker powers cannot penetrate MR or the Aegis.

Lets look at the rest of that quote shall we?

Nightwalkers have no Might, so
they are not held at bay by the Aegis of the
Hearth. They can walk straight through the
walls that most covenants use to defend their
supplies, and nightwalkers can choose to be
invisible. They are able to obtain information,
steal small objects, and perform sabotage
with a simplicity that is breathtaking.

How are a nightwalker supposed to be able to be able do all the actions described if they don't use straying to do so?

[ezzelino]

@ErikT

@ezzelino

As for Nightwalkers: I think they were never intended to be an exception to the "standard" rules, though the author might have misread those rules (or failed to read the general text for Hedge Wizards on HMRE p.7). In particular, on HMRE p.118 we read:

Nightwalkers have no Might, so they are not held at bay by the Aegis of the Hearth

Now, this is technically true. A Nightwalker is not held at bay by the Aegis of the Hearth, and can simply walk into one. But as I read it, a straying Nightwalker is blocked by Magic Resistance, and the straying effect fizzles out upon entering the Aegis. I cannot find any text in the Nightwalker section that is technically incorrect if Nightwalker powers cannot penetrate MR or the Aegis.

Lets look at the rest of that quote shall we?

Nightwalkers have no Might, so
they are not held at bay by the Aegis of the
Hearth. They can walk straight through the
walls that most covenants use to defend their
supplies, and nightwalkers can choose to be
invisible. They are able to obtain information,
steal small objects, and perform sabotage
with a simplicity that is breathtaking.

How are a nightwalker supposed to be able to be able do all the actions described if they don't use straying to do so?

A nightwalker can enter an Aegis by walking like any mundane.

In the absence of an Aegis, he can walk, or rather have his phantasticum walk, through walls defending supplies (possibly invisibly). Note that nothing says that those walls are protected by an Aegis, though the fact they are "used by a covenant" might suggest so.

It's important to note that this section is not part of the "mechanics sections" of Nightwalkers. It's part of the Saga Seeds. If the author had assumed that Nightwalker rules were to be an exception to the standard Aegis rules, he would have written so when describing the mechanics (e.g. note that Nightwalker straying and other powers are unaffected by the Aegis of the Hearth).

Last but not least: David Chart asked to each of us how we think that the clarified rules he wrote, (which are the rules ... as intended by him) deviated from what we thought were the rules as intended. That's just how I see it

[ErikT]

One can read it that way, but it would be a very convoluted reading.
I think it is obvious that section in HMRE talks about straying Nightwalkers when saying they can enter an Aegis, not someone walking like any mundane.

Besides, why would a straying nightwalker be stopped by an Aegis?
Their spirit can, as already noted, enter the Aegis just fine when residing in the body, so why wouldn't it be able to do that when away from the body?
No Might means that aspect of the Aegis won't stop them.
There is no indication that you can dispel a straying with some kind of spell.
I see nothing in the description of Nightwalkers that suggest they are stopped by Magic Resistance - on the contrary they sometimes fight minor demons or ghosts or other creatures with Might, and they wouldn't be able to do that if they had to penetrate the MR of those, since a nightwalker typically has no Penetration.