(I can't believe no one has finished the statement begun in the subject line...
How I stopped worrying about Botches... and learned to love Twilight.
Not exact but close enough. 8) )
Hi,
The casting score does not include the die.
Well, since you're getting technical, it's like this:
- Calculate Casting Score = Sta + TeFo + Aura (page 81)
- Add stuff to Casting Score; since addition is commutative, this can be done in any order:
--a) lowest Art if a focus applies
--b) AL + Phil, for Ritual or Ceremonial
--c) Talisman attunements
--d) various other virtues
Note that trying to finesse the language "is this now part of an opaque Casting Score object" is fraught with difficulty and inconsistency. It would be weird, for example, for Phil+Al to act as an opaque part of the Casting score for Spontaneous Magic but not for Ritual Magic.
- If this is not a Rote or spont/5, roll a die, which may be either stress or simple.
The difficulty comes when we try to turn the text into a computer program and generate entities that aren't there.
I think you are trying very, very hard to manage to the conclusion you want to reach. And there is nothing that says that even if the Ability is buried deep inside a formula, that it suddenly isn't "used." Using logic of this kind, I can do away with all kinds of virtues, because really, a "roll" only includes a die.
I'd want to see a much stronger argument than what you offer here to deviate from the simplicity of "if there's a die roll, and the Ability gets added to the die roll, the roll involves that Ability." Note that "Ability Roll" is not defined anywhere, and, in any case, the text of Cautious with Ability does not use that phrase (at least not in my book.)
[/quote]
When you string everything together it does look like it might be a Ability roll, but this is just an artifact of the players stringing several distinct totals and bonuses together.
The RAW is not wonderfully clear about this, and usually it doesn't really matter. But it does in this case make a small difference.
[/quote]
The Cautious with Ability virtue doesn't say anything about Ability rolls. The language is "when using it." I think it is fair to say that the Abilities are used during Ceremonial Magic.
In the chapter about magic, different kinds of casting methods have "bonuses" and "penalties" called out, and the section begins with a basic casting score that is modified by other stuff. "Bonus" just means that stuff is gained rather than penalized. The text explains that the scores in the two Abilities are added to the casting score: The Abilities are being used, and the roll involves the Abilities. Whether you want to call the Abilities "a casting bonus," the roll still involves the Abilities, which are being used. What's happening in character is that the magus is using his knowledge of astronomy, of natural philosophy, of metaphysics and so on. He is using the Abilities. If he has Puissant Artes Liberales, that's added, because it's a roll that includes it, and that makes sense: He is better at AL. If he is Cautious with Artes Liberales, he is much less likely to make a mistake in his calculations and so on: It makes sense for this to apply.
I do think that where the text is pretty clear that the bonus is that you add the two Abilities to the Casting Score and (for Ritual Casting; it seems possible to cast a spont/5 ceremonially) a stress die, and the header simply describes the bonus, you are creating this new entity, "The Ceremonial Casting Bonus," in order to manage to a conclusion: You don't want Cautious with Ability to apply. Which is fine.
(The text for Cautious Sorcerer is interesting, by the way: It mentions that CS is applied first and does not remove the last botch die but that mastery and "other effects that reduce botch dice" can. Other than using Cautious with Phil or AL as I describe, I cannot find any mechanisms in the main rulebook that would remove the last botch die.)
Anyway,
Ken
Ovarwa, I think we may be talking about different things. You are trying to reduce botch dice, and I would certainly allow "Cautious with" to reduce botch dice with ceremonial casting. But it's not an ability roll, which is important only because of the magic of the Learned Magicians. They have magic that can turn a 0 into a 10 (no re-roll) for an Ability Roll. That needs a tight definition, because it's so sexy, as I think you can see.
I give up.
I'm not convinced that you are right, but I can see I'm not going to convince you either.
Hi,
That happens sometimes. 
Anyway,
Ken
Sax, please stop using the word "sexy" in this manner. It is annoying. You are using the word wrongly (or are using slang inspired by "Austin Powers" wich is twice as annoying).
Sorry, sir, local gaming slang. I'll watch it in the future.
Please don't call me sir 
Local gaming slang? What location? Or is it an in-joke amongst your troupe?
World's Best Comics and Games, here in Newport News, Virginia. My little monkey's paw trap. If you saw my young men lusting over a new rulebook like it was a Playboy, you would understand better. The conversion rate is about three "Oh Wow"s to one "Sexy!".
That is just creepy...
Hey, can't be too picky. I've been hanging out with a group of people who argue for days about what "target" means.....
True. But there is a distinct difference between "pendantic" and "creepy".
It sounds like these guys need more women. Tell them I am willing to sell some of my secrets for a low price special just for gamers.
Tempo of the age. They have plenty of women, and the sewer the Internet can be. What we get easily, we value lightly. Sex isn't sexy anymore....
Hmm I've been using sexy in that way to for a little while (past few months) don't hang out at the local game store much so thats not where I've picked it up. I'm not that original so I asume it's filtering in from the zetgeist somewhere. I usually use it in describing good food so mayby I'm pulling it down from food tv.
How about an imperfect solution that's fairly easy to accomplish? The nice thing about this solution is that the benefits are not limited to preventing Twilight. You can get a ton more out of binding a familiar, Flawless Magic, and some of the other things mentioned further below.
Minor Virtue: Cautious Sorcerer
Major Virtue: Flawless Magic
Familiar: Gold Cord 5
Learn the spell Enigma's Gift (or the one to give Warping if I have the wrong name), choosing the special ability of Magic Resistance. Now you're pretty safe from someone targeting you with a spell to send you into Twilight.
Technically, you can choose a specialty for each Spell Mastery; choose avoiding botches or something along those lines. Your formulaic spells will normally be cast with no chance of a botch. Even if there is a chance of a botch, the botch dice will be reduced by 10, which typically will result in no botch dice.
Your fatiguing spontaneous magic will be cast with 8 fewer botch dice to a minimum of 1. Avoid doing this too often. But you'll need to start with 10 botch dice before the reduction to have any chance of entering Twilight. That's pretty rare.
Here are some refinements to what I wrote above. It's not too hard to add one or two of these since what's above leaves a lot of space.
Have a high stamina.
Build up Concentration and choose a specialty of Twilight or avoiding Twilight.
Build up Vim especially targeting scores of 5n+1, such as 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, etc.
Minor Virtue: Affinity w/ Concentration
Minor Virtue: Affinity w/ Vim
Minor Virtue: Faerie Magic
Minor Virtue: Puissant Concentration
Minor Virtue: Puissant Vim
Minor Virtue: Self-Confident
Major Virtue: Chthonic Magic (you'd need a mystery to have this with Flawless Magic)
If it's your goal, you should be able to avoid entering Twilight pretty easily using what I've written above. It shouldn't be too hard to have a 15+(roll)+(Confidence boost) against (Warping Score)+(# Warping Points)+(roll). Meanwhile the number of Warping Points will be relatively minimal, so you won't have to roll this often and should nearly always succeed in the roll until you start getting a double-digit Warping-Score. At that point you've ideally raised that 15 higher, but even if you haven't, the odds are well in your favor until you get to the mid-teens.
Chris
Hi,
Nice one!
Yes. Mythic Stamina (magic) gets rid of the last botch die too.
Cautious with Concentration, so the avoidance roll isn't botched.
[quote]
Anyway,
Ken