I just picked up Hedge magic !

Games Discussion Ars Magica
41

Sodales,

Before reading that comprehensive report, I had never realized how lucky I was to be a Gifted member of our great Order (no offense to our Mercere brothers, they are the thread that binds us together). Never again will I begrudge House Bonisagus its right to take my apprentice. It is such a trivial price to pay for the power the Founders have bequeathed us. Here, take my Vis too, I can always go find some more. Nothing I can give can repay my debt.

This worthy tome truly makes you appreciate how superior Hermetic magic is to hedge traditions. Before you envy the few tricks they taunt you with (a pox on you, Gruagachan), remember that in many cases, it is all they have. Look at how low they have to reach to maintain their traditions, mutilating mundane children (I'm looking at you, Folk Witches) to grant them inferior powers which even the least among us can easily match through our superior Arts and erudition.

Even in those areas where their abilities reveal some oversight or incompleteness in our magic, it is only a question of time until one of our comrade unlocks secrets of their powers and cleanse them of their superstitious trappings (I'm looking at you, Nightwalkers).

Sodales! The duty our hallowed Founders have laid upon us is clear! We must conquer them and integrate what little they have to offer into Hermetic Theory. To let the Gift of even one child be mutilated by what those unworthy traditions consider a proper initiation is an unpardonable crime! Sodales! Let us offer them the Choice of Flambeau: join or die!

That's a cool book, crunchy and flavorful (while still remaining widely usable - alternate traditions are a nice touch). The ungifted initiations contribute nicely to the traditions' personality (an eye for Second Sight.? yesssss...). I need to spend more time with some traditions to figure out the crunch (and compare it with Ex Misc non-hermetic powers). Hedgies are different, interesting in and of themselves, but won't in any way overshadow Hermetic magi.

Anyway, there is something in there for most sagas. It more than adequately replaces the corresponding material from prior editions.

So far, I like. :slight_smile:

42

They aren't summoning as much as creating (and after looking again it seems that they really don't need to penetrate). What they are creating are elementals per RoP:Magic with the additional drawback that the elementals can not, under normal circumstances, regain might.

43

I'm waiting with bated breath for this to arrive at my store!

I'm especially curious what the Gruagach hermetic integration possibilities are. What is Cailleach magic, and how is Improved Voice Range different from voice range?

Gruagach have always been my favorite non-hermetics. Can they still spontaneously shapechange into almost anything?

44

The integration suggestions for Gruagach Magic are a bit lackluster...

Cailleach Magic is the Gruagachan equivalent of Diedne Magic and is integrated as that virtue. Improved Voice Range is the ability to affect targets at Voice range without being able to perceive the individual target and is the only unique integration project found in the chapter. Integrating Gruagach Magic can also yield the Flexible Formulaic Magic virtue.

I haven't run any numbers yet, but the Give Shape guidelines are quite generous, even a beginning Gruagach specialized in the appropriate arts should have no trouble transforming himself into any conceivable shape with formulaic magic and even a generalist ought to be able to spont most animal forms.

Example Gruagach Spell:
Shape of the Woodland Prowler (Gruagach Version)
Give Shape 5
Range: Personal. Duration: Sun. Target: Individual.
Turns the Gruagachan into a wolf until sunrise/sunset. Because Gruagachan do not have access to the concentration duration, he must remain a wolf until the spell expires. Alternately, he could use the Limit (Condition) duration. This would allow the spell to last longer and give him a way to terminate the effect prematurely if needed.
(Base 3, +2 Sun)

45

Well, I have now obtained and read a copy and I'm very impressed - there's a lot there which would be of use in just about any saga, and the Elementalists and Mathematici in particular I can see being used as the basis for a large chunk of a saga about the interplay between magicians within and without the cities.

Aside from a few minor quibbles (I fail to see why spells to use PeCo to make someone tired require a breakthrough, though I do like the new guidelines), it's excellent stuff. I do, however, have two questions about the Nightwalkers.

Firstly, I was under the impression that certamen was the invention of Tremere, rather than learned from Trianoma as suggested. Secondly, surely the the Nightwalkers as decribed are all Faerie or Divine rather than Magical? They care about humans and human societies, and fight to either protect and harm them for the society's sake. If opposing Infernal forces, surely that's the realm of the Divine, whist fights for fertility against the forces of darkness are fairly neatly battles between two opposed faerie courts? As Hedge traditions, they're nice, but they don't seem to me to be Magical traditions.

46

This is one of those things...I think it was a continuity nod. In the current edition Bonisagus invents certamen at the suggestion of Tremere. As you say it then goes onto say that Tremere cribbed the idea from the nightwalkers he knew.

No, they aren't. As a note, phrasing questions with the word "surely" makes you sound argumentative.

Well, nightwalkers are humans, so their interest in humans is hardly suprising.

Again, I'm not sure you are clear on how that "surely" reads. So, Hermetic magi who fight demons have to be Holy Magi? You can oppose the infernal without being an Agent of the Lord if the Infernal is trying to burn down your barn.

No, faeries do not really care about the fertility of the Earth. The fertility of the earth is a neutral thing that occurs without human interaction. It's therefore part of the magical, not faerie, realm. Faeries might seem to care, and the Divine claims the fertility of the Earth occurs because of it, but no, the straight link between natural forces and Faerie was broken when David resdesigned faeries for this edition.

This natural force has some Magical defenders. The primary one in this section is the Lady.

There are some faerie nightwalkeres, and they are mentioned in the chapter. And yes, there are some Divine Nightwalkers as well, and they are mentioned in the chapter too.

The chapter, for the most part, focuses on magical nightwalkers. Now, these groups tend to fight either each other or the infernal. Those that fight each other don't fit any of your categories above. Those that fight the infernal fight the infernal for much the same reason Hermetic magi do: the forces of infernal are trying to hurt them. Some are captained by an angel. Others, not so much and these are magical.

47

Um ... actually it states that it was cribbed from Trianoma, and that the House Tremere have some Insight, but not that Tremere the founder contributed anything to it - that's what threw me. I don't have access to my older books to check what they had Tremere and Trianoma contributing.

I am being argumentative. What I hope I'm not being is aggressive or belligerent, and if I come across as such, I apologise. I just don't feel that passively presenting an opinion does much, and want to be convinced one way or another.

This is sort of my point - they're fighting because of humans and for human groups - not because of the fertility of any given bit of land. I understand the difference in Faerie and Magic in 5th (or think I do anyway) and that's why I'm confused. The faeries being concerned with battles and victories as stories to grow strong on I can see being relevent, and the Divine likewise protecting the faithful. I don't see why Magic would be concerned with fields. The people being interested, yes, but the traditions aren't people taught and raised in a philosophy (except in the passive sense of being brought up in a community where such things are known to have happened). They rise from their bodies, summoned by a captain, and go off to fight the dead and damned for the good of a community.

I suppose my query boils down to this - Holy Magi select themselves and choose to align themselves against the Infernal, but many of the Nightwalkers are chosen instead and compelled to do so, despite not being chosen by the Divine. Why would the impersonal and inhuman forces of Magic care? What does the Lady of the Game see as the point?

48

Well I don't have the finished book in front of me, but I think that HoH:TL says that Bonisagus invented Certamen at Tremere's suggestion. This is meant to be read in that context. Tremere says "I need a hammer." and Bonisagus says "Hrrrm, Trianoma had the plans for a hammer somewhere."

The nightwalkers are not fighting because of human groups, they are fighting because they -are- human groups.

If a natural thing Just Happens Becasue it Does in Mythic Europe, then its likely Magic, under the auspices of the Divine that causes it.

Yep, and if there is no rationale for it, then the reason, by default is Magic, which makes my successful evidentiary standard very low indeed. 8)

Magic is not aloof in Mythic Europe. That is, it doesn't shun humans, it just doesn't fixate on them like the other realms do. For the Lady, the humans are a means to an end. She does not, however, explain what that end is. For her human servants, the obvious outcome "You get to eat next year." is enough.

This is deliberately not explained. She does it. That, with Magic, is actually enough. It's kind of like asking "Why does the Great Drake of the Pyrenees Live in the Pyrenees?" Magical creatures don't, in Ars, need to give human explanations. In game, this is because they may not have human minds. OOC, it's because otherwise you need to explain basic genre conventions like "Why do the elementals live in this stream and not that stream?" for which the OOC answer is "I need them for a story". Some spirits do have human reasons for doing things, and she may be one of them, but framing a question about the actions of a magical being in the human sense of motive is, IMO, not a good way of thinking about higher magical beings.

IMO, she's a really powerful fertility spirit, perhaps on the level of the Titans themselves. Asking why she cares is, IMO, like asking why Oceanus thought the sea was important and why Ixion was in favor of the Sun. It's -her-. She embodies it. She literally and figuratively -is- the fertility of Mythic Europe, at least in some sense. She trains and uses defenders because she needs to. She ferries the dead away because they are parasitic.

Now, the actual chapter, for those of you who don't have the book, never says this. It gives various hints as to her possible movties, including her being Diedne, Veia, the Wolf Madonna, Bjornaer and a few other things, if the final book's like the draft.

Basically, though, it's not a matter of her having a point, as theough she was just a human with powers. She's a spirit. She does it because its what she does, much as the spirit of the constellation of Capricorn does it because he is the Spirit of the Constellation of Capricorn.

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49

:sigh: That sounds very good to me.

Now, if only I could justify purchasing the book to myself... I'm having some other economic commitments get in the way of my Ars purchasing, unfortunately... :frowning:

50

Got Hedge Magic, finally. I've had it a couple of days now, read some of the chapters, and I love it. Great work, as usual! :slight_smile:

Eirik

51

I have a doubt, it's about the Favored Supernatural Abilities.
In the old House of Hermes Societates it's said that that abilities are considered in the case for a Gifted companion are the free for the Gift and all selected with virtues in the creation, no problem, but that abilities only need are scored 1, after of that only count to the discount of quality source no? Becaus in the corebook say taht after the 1 you can learn magica abilities normally, or that say only because you need direct teac o training with somebody and after of that you can learn from books?

52

My understanding is that you only get the study total penalty when trying to acquire a new supernatural ability. When you increase one you've already acquired, your study total is not penalized.

I reconcile that with the wording about favored abilities by interpreting it as meaning that if you have picked supernatural abilities at character creation, you do not get to mix and match favored abilities to optimize the yield, so to speak.

For example, if you start the game with Shapeshifter, Wilderness Sense, Entrancement and Dowsing, those are your four favoured abilities. You do not get to say "well, Dowsing is not one of my favored abilities, Enchanting Music is, but I'll pick it during play" and leave your Dowsing score deliberately low to minimze the penalty when finally learning Enchanting Music.

I'd make an exception if a character starts with fewer supernatural abilities as have been common in published traditions (i.e. fewer than four).

53

Can somebody write the guidelines for discovering the gift? I know there is a spelle called the ... numbess of the gift (or smtg like that)

54

"The Numbness of the Gift" uses the Intellego Vim Guidelines found in the Core book (Detect the traces of powerful magic).

55

(No such spell in the Core book.)

56

Is it so easy? :smiley:

57

The guideline is what he is stating is in the Corebook, not the spell.

It does make apprentice finding seem a bit easy, though...

V.

58

Ah, my bad - shouldn't post before morning coffee has actually opened my eyes. :blush:

But that spell doesn't find an apprentice - it lets the mage identify someone who has Magic within them, but only if the mage is lucky or clever enough to cast the spell while they are within range. Then, whether or not that is adequate for The Gift*, whether or not that Gifted is complete, and whether or not that person is desirable as an apprentice, are each another matter.

(* There are many "magical" people in ME who only have minor power, a supernatural magical ability or such, or a badly flawed Gift. Not even enough to be considered a Hedge Wizard, nor worth marching.)

Always consider "the Story" when applying these spells to the Saga. If it's time for an apprentice and the mage puts some effort into it, finding one should not be a major obstacle - unless that is the story that you want told.

The spell Clenching Grasp of the Crushed Heart may well kill your enemies, but having that spell is not the same as them all actually being dead. The story between the two is what is interesting. :wink:

59

Equally we need to limit the amount of story seeds in our saga so a clean way of finding an apprentice appeals.

Developing the Numbness of the Gift into an apprentice hunting spell (say Sun duration and Voice range) i.e. Lvl30 is a pretty solid piece of work

Current guidelines are Stress+Per of 12+ to find a suitable victim (i.e. roughly 5% success/season 1% botch based on +1 Per)

I'd add in a +3 bonus from the above spell to find someone suitable
And/or maybe a +6 bonus to find something less suitable
(i.e. roughly 25% success, 30% wierdness, 1% botch)

This might still be being a bit mean, but I guess it depends on how rare you think the Gift is?

Maybe a bigger bonus for a Sight range version i.e. Lvl 40, perhaps +5/+8 so roughly 55% success, 30% wierdness, 1% botch

And/or maybe more botch dice for running around the countryside with a spell effect running that effects everything in sight?

60

THREADOMANCY!!!! :smiling_imp:

I got this book on Wednesday (YAY!!) and I have been reading it. As usual fior me, I skimmed through it all and then started to read from back chapter to front chapter (yes, I must suffer from some warping...). So far I have rrread the Vitki, Nightwalker natural magician and am at half reading the gruagach chapters. I skimmed through the rest to get a general overview, but with no details yet.

FIRST IMPRESSIONS:

  • Hedgies are... hedgies. Not worth a rat's cleanliness against your regular hermetic on a duel... or on a 10 vs 1 engagement. Most parmaless apprentices are fair duellists to go against most hedgies and the hedgie will have a hard time surviving if the apprentice is in his late teens. If you search for magi that can challenge the hermetics on a magical duel look somewhere else.

  • hedgies break some limits of hermetic magic, but most of the time it is no biggie. hermetics can skin the cat in other ways.

  • Gruagachan are back (YAY!!!) and small magics are all around mythic europe, under every stone you look you have a magical practitioner. I am not sure that this proliferation of supernatiural entities falls well within my impression of mythic europe, but will need to read the whole book before determining it. It is my impression that a tendency in 5th edition is to go supernatural-heavy leaving the mundane parts as a sideshow, so HM it follows the trend here.

  • I like non Gifted having access to magic, but I don't know if I like it THAT much, though. I have not read it in depth, so maybe in the first chapter it is stated that the ungifted dudes must have a supernatural ability or 2 to be elegible (they have smaller Gifts)

Now, the exact traditions:

VITKIR
These guys suck big time. Not a bad thing in itself, but I expected more of those guys. They lack in one aspect that I felt was needed: the ability to affect big areas or dudes at a long distance with powerful magic. As it is, they are quite weak in everything.

No sponting plus a really low number of rune spells known (only 120 levels, like a hermetic) makes for weak characters. They can learn spells MUCH faster than hermetics once you look at their numbers, so those 120 levels seems rather odd to me. Still, after some years out of apprenticeship they should be OK. Still, their starting package of abilities is low for what it should be IMO. I expect more for a 15 year apprenticeship. As usual YMMV.

The thing that really annoys me is the fact that they seem to fail to affect larger areas. Their magic is way weaker than what appears in some Norse storiesI have read. They cannot affect an island with a rune carving on top of the highest point of the island (sight/boundary range/target in practical terms), for example, or cast a curse to a guy in the next valley by carving a dead horse's skull with harmful runes and placing it looking at the valley of the other guy.

Or maybe I missed something (read this at 4 AM IIRC)

Also, there is no clear guideline on how long spells last (Duration) for rune scripts as far as I can tell, so I don't know if a rune script qwill last years or a few minutes if I carve the rock of Mount Snaefell 3 metres deep with my 2 metre high runes...

There is no explanation of why there are 3 Aetts either. I find that bothersome since a 3 aett division must have a mystical reason, right? The background of the dudes is left mostly by the sidewalk to concentrate on pure number crunching. And the number crunching is fairly weak and not as thorough as I feel it should be to make me confident to use them IMS. A pitty really :confused:

I guess that my problem is that I find this guys cool as a concept, and the supposed coolness is not there to be seen. I fail to see why hermetics did fear them a little bit and tear their hair appart at the mention of the order of Odin. If there was an OoH I know my PCs could enter their grand tribunal equivalent and probably kill their archmage equivalents laughing. As with the cursed horse skull above, i feel that history of the OoH and mythic feel do not match the numbers well.

NIGTHWALKERS
At first I thought "WTF?" and then I started to smile as I read those guys. THOSE ARE COOL!!!! IMO they are the most powerful characters I have read so far, and as opposed to the other traditions hermetics cannot simply blow them to pieces with not many consequences. As in Fight Club, "those guys are the ones that make your laundry, tend your fields, serve you your food and pay your tolls. So don't f*ck with them". besides, they can be a potent threat if aroused as said in the book itself.

There, even if you do not have much background info on them, the tradition is fairly well integrated and the mechanics are solid. I like the concept and its development. Kudos here :slight_smile:

The night battles could have been explained a little bit better, but they are cool.

Some questions, though:

  1. Can a phantasticum of a supernatural being cast spells or use his supernatural abilities? Assume the phantasticum is in human form

  2. Do magic items and the like transform with you into phantastic stuff? My guess is that no UNLESS it is a talisman, but to be sure. Most mages carry around magical rings much more commonly than their swords, for example.

  3. Can a corporeal phantasticum turn invisible?

  4. What is the appearance of a corporeal phantasticum? Solid or ghost-like?

Thx :slight_smile:

NATURAL MAGICIANS
Here I am frustrated. They seem cool, but you seem to require Art & Acadme to run one of those with its full range of powers, since the guidelines for alchemy are not there. I plan on getting A&A but it will take a while (my FLGS is not so friendly and seems to be dropping the line, apparently :frowning:). To see the full potential of these guys you seem to require this kind of knowledge.

These guys seem to be way less powerful than their 4th edition equivalents. Chartae are not as powerful as the old spellcrafting used to be, but they can still get some fairly good effects. The EXTREMELY SHORT DURATION of their enchantments is what really bothers me. I fail to see why such things should expire so fast! In stories alchemists and witches have prepared stuff in DUSTY BOTTLES, not shiny new bottles because they just finished preparing the compound yesterday! Now, if you do not use the enchanted preparation you lose it FAST. That is counterintuitive to my understanding of those guys, but I might be wrong....

I like quick charged items, but they are not more powerful than watching wards there, only requiring no vis to cast the spells. Quite good for achieving semi-sponts that come "boosted from home", though. Not game breaking in any case.

GRUAGACHAN
Promising so far. :slight_smile: I like the general approach, and Gruagach as a god is cool as an idea. But wouldn't he be a Faerie in that case?

I am not clear if Gruagachan need Artes Liberales to read Ogham, sinc eit is said that literacy in Ogham is scarce among gruagach....

The poetic justice modifiers seem cool, and the abilities correspond well with the suppoosed problems of the tradition. What I think I will be missing is Brude Deathless, since the transformation to troll would have taken him out of the game a long time ago.

An example spell to transform to an animal would have been good as well, but that is a minor point.

Even if I might sound harsh, I am enjoying A LOT this book. Only that I have might have been expecting a more powerful approach to hedgies, so I am mildly frustrated here. The magus I am working on is likely to be a Nightwalker in any case :wink:

Mpore to come later, ponce I finish with the gruagachan and move to the witches and elementalists.

Cheers,

Xavi