Identifying Children with the Gift

Is there any method (magical ability or Intellego spell perhaps) that can reliably identify children with the Gift?

Obviously acquiring apprentices probably requires a story. But I'm curious if it takes a lot of observation of a child (and the way others treat them) or if there is a more definitive method to ascertain their Gifted / Ungifted nature.

After all, if someone has the Gentle Gift how is it that they were ever selected as an apprentice? Even if a child is obvously smart, if they don't exhibit the Gift, training them as an apprentice won't allow them to cast magic.

Your thoughts appreciated.

Well, in the apprentices section you can find an apprentice (gifted child) with a Perception roll, EF 12.

in 4th ed. there was a virtue that allowed you to detect the gift as well.

OMG - is this a slip of mind disclosing that the subject at hand has actually absorbed material from the book so often asked to read.. I'm to mindbogled to congratulate at my present state of mind... :smiling_imp:

Or maybe... just maybe... this is the slip of the disguise that really proves what some have suspected concerning Abe's alternative persona...

Vindication!!!!!!!!!! Notice he spells*! He spells!!!!!!~! !$#!# !#@ ! !! :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation:

  • A post with no shortcuts, joined words, or misspellings, is rather rare for abe...

He's missing a capital letter at the beginning of the sentence. :wink:

Keep in mind he also hinted at knowledge from Pax Dei ("Pius" magi indeed).

ABE - I call your bluff! You have made masters, no need to carry on this charade! Reveal thyself. Mr Hide - reveal thine Jekyll!!!

No more - I beg of you - no more!!

He MUST be Infernal to have disguised himself all this time...

Very old skeletons brought to life with this thread necromancy... but I can't get it out of my head having seen some InVi guidelines for identifying the Gift... Was I dreaming or something?

Not dreaming - you're right. You can look on HMRE page 6 or look at the guidelines compilation on the Atlas site. It's a base of InVi10.


Sweet! I wish I had bet my player on it, thanks!

A mage can be detected with an InVi spell; Base 5 will detect a mage with all his Arts as 0, which would be a just-opened apprentice (see the InVi guidelines in AM5, particularly the third text paragraph from the end). I figure it is not too much of a stretch to add a magnitude to detect someone with the Gift whose Arts have not been opened (but discuss it with your Troupe, they might insist on a greater base).

ArM5 on p.158 discusses detecting a Hermetic Magus specifically via Art strength, not via the Gift itself. Or at least that is my admittedly inexperienced interpretation. I guess it would be Base 0 to detect a Hermetic Magus with 0 Art strength, but I would argue that an apprentice without opened Arts could not be detected in this way because he or she was not yet a Hermetic Magus (the target would not yet have even 0 Art).

I thought up the following two spells, and I am not at all sure about the design of the second.

I picked Muto Mentem because this spell grants a sense not listed on ArM5 p.114 and therefore there was no "target" like Vision (etc.) to list in the spell; instead it it provides a nebulous "directional knowledge"/"feeling". That is the part I am not really certain of, perhaps I simply do not understand the rules in question.

No matter how I look at either one, if a magus was casting either and another Hermetic magus came within range, then it would seem to mean the casting magus was in violation of the Hermetic Oath based on a scrying violation on the spot. Wouldn't this doom efforts to use these types of spells to search for Gifted individuals?

Can a spell be designed to automatically fail without detection when encountering 0 or higher Magic Resistance? (That's just me grasping at straws.)

Yes. You can cast spells forcelessly (see HoH:TL). Although the other magus will still feel it ping off their Parma.

That's why you don't cast the spells when you suspect other magi (who will object) are in range.

On the other hand, you might be able to claim that the other magi were hiding (depending on context). It is not, for example, normally considered "Scrying" if you happen to "accidentally" detect a magus who is lurking around invisible, or a magus who is disguised as something unexpected like a cushion or a leg of lamb.

I guess the next question is, do people believe it is possible to design a spell to detect only Gifted individuals whose Arts have not been opened?

Base 15, Detect a Gifted individual whose Arts have not been opened? (Base 20?)

Your First Sight of the Future Magus is the type of Intellego spell that provides magically enhanced senses. But there is a second type of Intellego spell, namely one that simply discovers information. Your Guidance on the Utmost Search could (should) be an Intellego Vim spell of the second type. Or, have it target Hearing and let a faint echoing voice guide you to the Gifted individual....

I'll have to look at that tomorrow.

I have gone over the spell design rules for ArM5 four times and, regrettably, I still do not understand some parts of it, especially magical senses. The whole digression into Muto Mentem being necessary for multiple individuals when not necessary for single individuals confuses me to no end. :frowning:

Don't worry RainOfSteel, you are not alone! :confused: I only just learned about the Muto Mentem digression you mention (and will happily house-rule it away if it comes up IMS).
I find magical senses pretty confusing too - especially once we start talking about enchanted items....

In this case you don't have to MuMe for groups because you aren't granting the sense to a group, only an individual (yourself). As mentioned, you could use a sense other than vision to track down your Gifted child - smell or sound both spring to mind. Combining this with some smell-enhancing or sound-enhancing spells - such as spells that let you track like a bloodhound - and you can probably sniff out your Gifted individual fairly easily.

While the magus could indeed charge you with scrying without knowledge, you would probably have as valid a case in return for them using magic to scry on you. After all, what other reason did they have for being invisible in your presence or pretending to be a leg of lamb if not to spy on you?

Correction: InVi 35
Base 10, +1 conc, +4 vision

The other one I'm not touching