If a Tremere leaves to another House, do they get their sigil back?

Yep, it does.

Good point. The question is would they attempt to kill the Magus in question? Or would the Code forbid it? Or would the code not really matter even if it did?

First getting the original sigil back does not really matter since a Magus sigil is really only their sigil as long as they state it is. The sigil is not what allows a Magus to vote, it is a token used to state "this person can proxy my vote".

As for the question of would they attempt to kill the Magus in question, while this is very much YSMV the most likely answer is no. Not only are the Tremere a very law abiding group (attempting to twist it to their advantage no withstanding) but they are very much disliked by a large portion of the Order at large and they know it. Taking even petty actions against a former member who asked for their sigil back would only feed that dislike, never mind them actually killing the Magus. While individual Tremere might be angry enough to go after the former member years or decades later when they have slipped out of the public eye, as a House the risk are not worth it.

3 Likes

While all of this is true, I think you underestimate the significance of tokens. The sigils are presented at tribunal to claim voting rights. Failing to present one, you fail to register as a voter. Who has the authority to issue a new sigil? Even today, without ID papers, getting ID papers is extremely difficult. OTOH, since each house have their own ways to issue sigils, you might want or need to get a new one when you switch house in any event. This would make the original question moot.

(I note that there is no mention of what happens if a magus loses his sigil, be it in a ship wreck, theft by a mighty faerie, or whatever. There must be other cases where a sigil has to be replaced.)

It is worth noticing that the Tremere practice has been discussed at tribunal in AD 773 [HoH:TL:48]. This confirmed that the parens holding the sigil is just the young magus' voluntary choice of proxy. Tremere was clear about this, and the tribunal may have frowned upon the practice, but approved it as legal. Thus, at least the official Tremere position is that they would return the sigil when requested and the magus leaves the house.

A second point worth mentioning is that denying the magus a vote would be a high crime, as the right to vote is part of the Oath itself. Arguably, both the parens refusing return of the sigil, a tribunal refusing to accept a replacement sigil, or a house/quaesitor refusing to issue a replacement, would be breaking the Code. Even if the magus might have to wait three decades for the GT to back his claim, I cannot see anyone risking the punishment for a High Crime. While tension over the sigil is likely, escalating it is not. Any pragmatic solution makes sense. Whatever fits the story.

I can totally see Tremere punishing the departing magus. Blindly declaring Wizard's War may have a high goodwill cost. There should be a just cause, but such causes can be found. The house, so lavishly supporting its members, could reasonably claim that every possession of the magus is the possession of the house, and thus has to be returned upon leaving. Failing to comply, could result in a Wizard's War. Any minor tiff from the past could be escalated to Wizard's War, if the house see a need to discourage leaving.

1 Like

Why would the house want to punish the departing magus? House Tremere has little interest in keeping unwilling members - they are generally more trouble than they are worth.

Besides, House Tremere does not like using Wizard's War to solve minor conflicts.

Demanding back any resources the magus had been given for working on House business - that makes sense.

Reminding the magus that they are not to blabber about any House Tremere secrets, or else.... Absolutely.

If the magus in question lives in a Tremere-dominated covenant they will probably be asked to leave - or get kicked out if the covenant charter allows that.

A cold shoulder from all Tremere magi in the future is to be expected, but not death threats.

In short, House Tremere, like almost all other houses, don't care all that much if someone wants to leave the house - as long as they don't spread any house secrets. (The exception being House Bjornaer which strongly disapproves of anyone leaving House Bjornaer.)

A slightly deluded primus, thinking that punishment is a good idea as a matter of principle would suffice to make the house do this.

That was one of the real concerns that I had in mind. Usually, I think you are right, the reminder suffices. However, I can imagine that the house so seriously distrust the departing magus that they want to remove the risk, and seek an excuse for Wizard's War. Not as a rule, but a plausible exception.

That was the other case I had in mind. And obviously, they would first ask politely, and then challenge to Certamen, and only if the magus does not comply, issue Wizard's War.

Yes, I know that they are not particularly fond of Wizard's Wars, but the cases I had in mind are the extreme exceptions and not the minor tiffs.