I'm just a little curious...

Bovxer, I can see I was typing an edit to my last message while you were typing a reply. I'd like you to check it out, because it does develop an answer to your original question, to some extent. Bascially, I think that the Diedne's re-emergence, coupled with their desire to keep secrets, creates a climate of fear that is more dangerous than any "death sentence". I have quored from earlier editions a fair bit, bedcause I think that colours my views a fair bit.

The tribunal didn't decide, IMO, if Tremere were right or wrong, merely if the declaration of war was legal or illegal. The Code is a really weak reed in terms of protecting the rights of magi, because it has a clear out: you are allowed to murder your fellow magi provided you tewll them in advance that you intend to do it.

I'd also say that the core rulebook needs to cover the entire sweep of Hermetic history in a handful of paragraphs. It therefore lacks any real nuance. Nuance is important, because you can get game ideas from it. So, although the write-ups in the House books never say "Hey, ArM5? Wrong." they do say "ArM5? Very sweeping, simplified version of events." For example, in this thread you have talked about House Bonisagus as abandoning the Diedne: its clear from the House write-up that much of the Trianoman faction was on Diedne's side, and they may have worked out a sort of underground railroad. House Jerbiton claims not to know where the Evangelists (the two groups sent out to paralell the development of Valnastium) are, but there are bards in House Jerbiton who look a lot like Druidic bards. I'm not saying either of these are "Here's how they escaped!" revelations. I am saying that throughout the editions there are trapdoors in the history that let your troupe say "They are still around." (In the last edition there were a group of Bonisagus who told people flat out they were Celtic bards who joined Bonisagus instead of Diedne.)

I think that we played that out in ArM2. The current stance, which is that they m,ay or may not have desreved what happened to them, is bascially an attempt to keep all of those optiopns open in the vanilla setting. The reason I object to your read is that it assumes the Druids didn't deserve what happened to them. Now, that's a perfectly good rerad for your own game. In the core setting, though, you can't prove that when the Guernicus piled up all the evidence and burned it, to stop the diabolic rituals spreading, they weren't 100% on the level. In the setting I like the option that they -might- have been.

House Guernicus destroyed the evidence afterwards. Now, you can say this is because they had a guilty conscience, or because they were defending the Order from its corrupting influence, but they did much the same to the Tytalus, too, so their methodology is consistent with an uncontested case.

Dark Secret doesn't mean you immediately face extermination, it means you, as the player, agree to make an issue of this thing. Now the stories you are going to play are probably not a grim death march, because you and your SG will negotiate that, but if you like you can certainly play a Diedne, in your game, that doesn't need Dark Secret. There are druidish guys in Ex Misc who don't have Dark Secret, as I recall.

I can see that, but I'd point out that even a full Hermetic tribunal doesn't reach our modern standard of justice. If you take as an axiom that genocidal war is, in setting, always wrong, then you can't get from there to the Tremere ever being right. In 1220 in game there are pagan guys in the Rhineland pulling the hearts out of people right under the noses of the Tremere. The way the Tremere are likely to deal with them, which is to genocidally destroy their tradition and explain to the Tribunal afterwards, isn't how we do things now.

Thanks for all that! :slight_smile:

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Not familiar with your reference to "OoH, Diedne chapter", care to clarify because I'd love to see this write up?

Yes of course, part of the unfortunate elements of human nature is to harbour desire for revenge. This is indeed a very likely way of playing any reorganisation (or at least resurgence) of Diedne as a group phenomenon. However, I think my interest in this thread was to explore possibilities for a "bury the hatchet" approach which might either be achieved by:

  1. A reexamination by a Grand Tribunal of the case (with as you say perhaps some cache of long-hidden evidence) which could either exhonerate Diedne altogether or conclusively confirm Tremere's original belief. In either case:
    a. Old Diedne exhonerated and posthumously pardoned and House Tremere required to formally forfeit a restitution offering (Vis or resources for restoration of the Diedne House)
    b. Tremere Exhonerated and Present Diedne forced to acknowledge the wrongs of its former House, Swear vows against diabolism in reaffirmation of the Code, submit to confidential Guernicus (only) scrutiny of their practices and/or perhaps even pay a debt of service directly to House Tremere through which Tremere could scrutinise their practices.

Or
2. Insinuation of a Tremere/Tytalus/ or Guernicus spy into a nascent group of Diedne to verify whether their practices are indeed infernal with subsequent revelation to the Grand Tribunal by such a Third Party as to whether modern Diedne have any diabolic taint remaining.

I just think one way or another (or others that I havent thought of) it would be intriguing to have a long lost founding tradition restored to playable option with full abilities/mysteries/ etc. delineated.

The only snag seems to be the necessity of a Mystery Cult to divulge its mysteries when other such cults in the Order are allowed to keep theirs closed to public scrutiny.

"Order of Hermes". The Diedne chapter is only one page long (78).

Which ones? The Houses are exoteric cults.

The Verditious might be technically exoteric but they are shown, in their write up, to be mighty jealous of their tradition's knowlege even to the point of lobbying the no scrying provision into the original code.

Umm.. Well forgive my ignorance but I am not familiar with this reference "Order of Hermes". Is it 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th edition? Is it a book or a fanzine?

Remember I only came to this game after 4th ed was released.

Hmm, I don't see this. Verditius had one case of one its major mysteries being made public and has deemed the culprit a traitor, forcing all members since to swear a separate Oath to the House to guard its secrets from all other Houses. Criamon's mysteries may be more open but are incomprehensible to anyone without The Enigma. In keeping with much that has been argued here "incomprehensible" usually = frightful and subject to all manner of speculative accusation. Merinitae Mysteries are also paganistic and rather fantastic to other Houses (especially I would presume those in the True Lineage subgroup) and Bjornaer also hail from wilder paganistic traditions and thus fall outside the rationalistic scope of many other Houses understanding.

Essentially, the very definition of Mystery Cult is that its rites are secrets to any but its own initiates, otherwise they wouldn't be mystery cults, surely.

Am I missing something?

It's late first or early second edition

I think that you hit your point dead on with the verditious. I didn't get the same understanding from the text as you did regarding the others. the criamon in particualr are listed as evangelistic about their mysteries. They'd love to have the rest of the order learn ther secrets and join their cause.

The Merinita don't come accross as particularily pagan to me, they'll call a faerie a faerie even the ones who are masquerading as gods. They're also far from secretive. Remember that quendelon wanted the entire order to switch over to faerie magic.

I read that they are evangelistic about their view of Time and the need for everyone to escape it, and certainly the welcome people to learn The Enigma by spending 1 year at the cave of Twisting Shadows, but to learn their Mysteries you would have to join their House and thus their cult.

As for Merinita, you may indeed be right, that is a rather "ify" reading on my part. Bjornaer however are clearly pagan and also a mystery cult.

Great idea! :smiley:

In response to me saying that the mystery houses are exoteric, BoXer replied:

I'd note here that the Verditus seem to be unique, in that their Mysteries are easily stolen. I, personally, think this is because Verditius attempted to teach them to Bonisagus, but he failed because Bonisagus was just after the baci theory of how to make enchanted objects. This does, however, give modern Bonisagus some chance to learn the Verditius mysteries.

A key point about Mysteries is that they don't need to be kept by people: mysteries keep themselves. You and I both know the core mysteries of the Catholic Church, for example, but neoither of us have gone through the ritual investitures that make us priests, so that even if we dumb show the actions of the priest, we cannot make the miracle of the transubstantiation work. If we were Guernicus onlooker,s we could see the trick be done and say "OK..." even though we can't do the trick ourselves.

This is very important in the Criamon case: because the Criamons are ritually sacrificing people. The Guernicus who is there cannot actually pull the trick himself, but he can ask the Primus "Are you sure you want to do this?" and talk to his ghost afterward and check the place for Infernal influence. The Criamon are incomprehensible, sure, but that doesn't mean you can't watch what they are doing and see if at any point a person makes your Sense Unholiness Virtue ring like a bell.

THen you are saying that Christianity, the most successful mystery religion in the history of the world, is not a mystery religion. A definition which does not include the prime example of the defined thing is not, IMO, much of a definition.

Yes. Mystery cults are secretive because they are -cults- and cult implies a turning away from society. The four Mystery Houses are cultic to various degrees, in the sense that they do not necessaruly do this. You can perfectly well have a mystery religion in which everyone knows the mystery, but only the priests can perform it, because they have a higher grade of mystogogic training than the laity.

The Verditius who gave away his House's Mysteries did more than just perform the rituals of the cult in the presence of outsiders: he initiated some of them to his own degree. That's a far more serious thing than letting people watch the unfolding of the mystery.

Now, for some Merinitae, this would not work, because your need a sacred space for the mystery from which you have dismissed profane people. The Orthodox Church still does this today, byt the way, which is why the transubstantiation is actually done behind a little screen away from the congregation. THese characters would, and we presume have, found a way to make themselves trustable to the powers that enforce the order's laws.

I'd had that, IIRC, non-criamon even participated in this "slay the primus" ritual.

Yes, they can: the thing I meant there was that the quaesutor can't bind himself to the Axis.

Oh, don't spoil a good rant with the RaW ... those are exaggerations of stereotypes that might be inferred from the basic rulebook.

Hmm ... thanks, but ... that's an ocean away from my bit of twilight, and then some. It's an offer I'm not especially tempted to take up .... :laughing: It would be an interesting setting to play, though (the one-house covenant, I mean -- not St.Paul, though that might be interesting too).