Immortal mage the hard way

I was looking at the Paths of the Forest, and I got to thinking about Twilight (I thought you had to roll for twilight if you acquired one warping point, but the book says botch, so dodged a bullet there.). It is possible to be immune to botches in canon (realms of power, the Divine, Art Nort.) So, use the virtue you got from Paths of the Forest to choose the virtue, Immune to Botches. It would probably be a major virtue and only cover the Magic realm, but still pretty sexy. If you stack your numbers right, you could have a +36 to comprehend Twilight (+5 int, +12 Enigmatic Wisdom (Aff and Pu), +5 bond score (spirit fam), +9 confidence (spend one point of conf per confidence score, +5 Item of Quality (WAG)) before you roll. Your warping score would have to double explode for you to worry until you have a warping score of 18. 950 warping points is a Lot of time in Twilight. At last a reason to stack that Longevity Potion!

So what have I got wrong? What have I got right? Anything I can add?

Hi,

What you have 'wrong' is that Immune to Botches is not a virtue. It doesn't exist. There are ways to mitigate botches, all of which are expensive and restricted in one way or another.

Also, unless I'm forgetting something--and I don't think I am--comprehending Twilight doesn't matter for a magus who cannot return from Twilight. 950 Warping Points translates into Final Twilight, canonically.

Anyway,

Ken

Ah, but Greater Immunity does exist, and botches are a hazard. Again, I did not come up with it, but immunity to botches does exist in game, in the Realms of Power, the Divine book. As to the second point, there is no formal listing for "max warping score", at least one I can find. Yes, a warping score of 10+ has the base effect of Final Twilight. But that is only the base, as opposed to decrepitude, which has a hard limit of 5. "For every additional point by which the maga's score exceeds the Twilight result, move down one step one the duration table". If you rolled good, you could have a warping score of 25, and still come back in less then a diameter.

Hi,

Botches are not a hazard. Botches are a game mechanic. Botches do not exist in the game world. A Greater Immunity to Fire makes sense: Fire exists. A Greater Immunity to Botches does not. How about a Greater Immunity to rolling less than nine? A Greater Immunity to Unexpected Plot Developments?

Immunity to Botches does not exist as a virtue in RoP:D. It simply doesn't. Now, there is a virtue, Ars Notoria, which grants nothing except the ability to spend lots and lots and lots of time and effort to study various secrets (after spending time and effort to get the virtue at all), eventually allowing a character to not botch for as long as the character continues to devote lots and lots and lots of time and effort to Ars Notoria, while maintaining a very holy lifestyle; iirc, it's very difficult even for a magus who does nothing else with his life but Ars Notoria to maintain all of the effects.

I'll have to recheck the Twilight rules; it may be as you describe.

Anyway,

Ken

Hi,

That said, it is possible to mitigate Twilight Comprehension botches.

Cautious with Enigmatic Wisdom reduces botch dice by two, potentially to none.

Cautious Sorcerer works with 'magic', iirc, and is general enough that I might allow it. 3 more botch dice gone.

Then there are Heroic Virtues, a major virtue that allows a reroll, costing 1pt of Confidence, and a minor virtue, Heroic Characteristic, that if chosen properly can remove 1 more botch die.

I don't remember if the Golden Cord applies.

Anyway,

Ken

Now we have some thinking going on! Right, "botches" is not a hazard, but failure is. I think you are reading more into "Supernatural Immunity : botch" then I am. Supernatural virtues have to be aligned to a realm, in this case the magic realm. Arts Not. makes you immune to All botches. Very sexy. What I am thinking is immune to botches in the Magic realm (because that's what it's aligned to). Much smaller. Doesn't help with aging or infernal botches, for example. Still a Major Virtue if possible.

Now the Re-roll a botch with a confidence point is hideous. Changes the whole dynamic. While I have you, do you think the Lab Safety score would reduce the botch dice for Twilight in the lab? That would be a reason to pump that number, yes......

Gold cord, like Cautious Sorcerer, works with "magic" so, maybe. Given the assumption that the lunatic in question has "spirit familiar", that would be very nice.....

Sophism is apparently a very real hazard, too, but I don't see how one could be immune to it. :confused:

If you want to quibble, the virtue is Supernatural, not Hermetic - and spell botches are not merely "supernatural" as defined.

If you want "immunity", you take Spell Mastery, and pump that. Or grow some hair and just admit that you need to invent a new Virtue. But Greater Immunity isn't it.

I thought Supernatural (magic) included Hermetic. As to botches not existing "in game", mages know the Gold cord does something, what is it "in game"? As it is, I'm not trying to invent a new virtue, I'm playing thought games about someone with the major virtue from Paths of the Forest, the one that lets you pick what you get from Twilight. Since you had to get "Twilight Prone" to get said virtue, it seemed to me that the first thing you would "wish" for would be to not screw up the many Twilights you are going to have. Supernatural Immunity seemed to fit best, then you trumped it with the virtue to re-roll. This is a "easy" virtue to get (you may never know you were part of an Mystery Cult!) in canon, and it's wide slam open. As written, one Twilight episode and boom! Adamic! Sure is easier then Research! So, I think about this before it happens. I'm thinking that Heroic virtues should not be allowed, and virtues that mess with the Limits are out as well, unless they have been Researched "in game". Your thoughts?

Hi,

This is a completely different issue. We started with Greater Immunity. Read the virtue to see how it works. It works against specific things. Not abstractions like "accidents" or "damage" or "injury." Within the game, a botch is a mishap. One botch might be "you fly into a wall." Another botch might be "you wanted to see through the wall but instead shattered all the glassware in your lab."

Magi are aware that accidents exist in their universe; they know that magical mishaps cause Warping and possibly Twilight, they even have an excellent idea about just how dangerous given practices are. They know that some magi have fewer accidents because they are careful, others because they are steadied by their faithful familiars, still others because they master spells. They do not know that someone is rolling botch dice to model their world, or that "Cautious Sorcerer" is a minor virtue.

Consider me fooled. FWIW, I'm cool with inventing virtues; heck, I not only spew variant virtues of questionable virtue, but entire sets of unruly rules.

As for picking virtues from Twilight, I think that getting any virtue is just silly. I don't think a magus gets to come back from Twilight with a Guardian Angel or as a knight (with expensive armaments, no less).

He might wish for it yet not get it. By this logic, he might wish to be God and get it. C'mon, it's just a Social Status virtue with perks.

I actually think that Heroic Virtues should be allowed. Well, should either be allowed or banned. But if a magus with the major mystical lineage virtue can take them, why not a character with the blood of a heroic faerie in his veins, say, Thor? Or a descendant of King David? This leads to another topic, about how I see Virtues and Flaws as a toolkit of legal (and hopefully sane) game mechanics with fluff that can be modified toward various ends, leaving the rules intact, so long as the result makes logical sense.

Aside from that, my thoughts are that you can do what you like in your game. You can decide that since 8 is just eight ones added together, when you roll an 8 on a stress die it really means that you get to roll up 8 times and total the results. If that makes the game more fun, go for it! I also think that there's nothing wrong with wanting to sidestep botches; I am not a fan of fumble mechanics either.

Anyway,

Ken

You don't get to pick "any" virtue, you get to pick a "Mystic" virtue. But I don't believe that "Mystic" has been defined in canon. I believe this board has decided that "Mystic" is Supernatural + Hermetic, and I'm ok with that. It's just that Mysteries added many virtues, as did Ancient Magic. Most of which would seem to be "Mystic" in nature. Given that I like Original Research and Ancient Magics, I am loathe to see them trumped by one Twilight episode. As to making up virtues, I don't get to play (my one success in getting a game started was junked by the other players when Pathfinder came out......) so I am killing time while I wait for an other opportunity. So this is a thought experiment, one I am using to explore the rules, as written, and to explore boundaries. So, trying to avoid making any new rules......

I can relate to that last. :wink:

But Immunity would have to be very generously interpreted to be the answer, imo. It would be kinda like taking "Tough" against warping points, or Ways of the Twighlight Land.

Hi,

Ways of the Magic Realm seems like a fine virtue.

Anyway,

Ken

That's where it gets tricky. One person, at least, thinks Way of the Land would work. As to warping, it seems to be covered by the Limit of Warping. The only thing that stops warping points (from Any source) that I can think of is a Might Score. So no Greater Immunity : Warping. But Greater Immunity almost covers something that doesn't exist, per say, and is not any one thing. Aging is mentioned as something not covered by Greater Immunity, but covered by Unaging. That implies a loose definition of "hazard". Again, your Heroic merit to re-roll trumps. One chance in ten to fail becomes one chance in a hundred. You still have a chance of 1000+ warping points without losing your soul......

That bird would not fly in my saga at all. A major immpunity makes you immune to fire, or metal weapons (wood and stones still hurt you) but not botches. Only angels can have something like that when on an important mission of God. Human beinghs are too frail to be immune to botching anything.

If you want it from another perspective, immunities for one thing make you IMMUNE to something: when you are immune is when you do not need to SOAK. SInce soaking is NOT a roll you cannot be immune to something that allows you to ignore precisely a roll.

Xavi

(Or Faerie. Crossed my mind too, but it was a tangent to the main discussion.) 8)

I'd happily take this virtue, whether I'm an ST or a player. Pretty please with cream and sugar on top?

Kidding. I think.

Hi,

Except that Ways of the Magic Realm might easily help a magus comprehend Twilight, which makes it relevant. It doesn't help a magus avoid it though.

Anyway,

Ken

Sorry that I was not clear. The idea I was working with was that you would be going into Twilight a lot (because of the Twilight Prone flaw) and the goal was to comprehend those Twilights as well as possible. I mean, Twilight prone is supposed to be a flaw, not a quick death sentence. Especially with that extra simple dice of twilight points that comes with every Twilight.

I would take the plot immunity while being storyguide. My players (and any troupe, I guess) are experts in throwing everything into disarrayt by saying inappropiate things at the wrong moment and kicking the ass of the wrong dude. :laughing: The art of SG and of improvisation are quite related :stuck_out_tongue:

Xavi