Immortals' Learning – is there a point without them having a

Not only from a player's perspective. According to my own reasoning, it seems the most mutually beneficial thing to do, from the average magus character's perspective, including members of mystery cults.

Think about it: the whole Order is built on a model of exchange of magical knowledge, for a fair price. Initation Scripts are not really different from Summae or Lab Texts. Very few mages would share them for free without just compensation, OTOH very few mages do not share their new insights and discoveries for a good price, and the history of the Order shows that almost all new discoveries, no matter how precious, if they can be reliably duplicated, unavoidably spread to the rest of the Order.

I see no concrete reason why Mystery Cults should work under a different model, since mystae are still Hermetic mages. It is more beneficial for a MC to work openly, and not to charge members too burdensome membership fees, since that means more influence, more members, more opportunity to develop their insights, and be free from the burden of maintaining excessive secrecy. It is better to reap a few services from a fifty members, than a lot from a dozen. They just have to ensure nobody gets training without due compensation. Sure, some MC may still maintain greater secrecy for ideological reasons, and charge 10 years of service for initiation, but social pressure would end up making them the minority.

Therefore, I do expect most Mystery Cults to eventually end up working like unofficial Houses, where they self-perpetuate themselves by charging new mages for training, but their existence and abilities is an open secret. IE I do not expect Esoteric cutls to work much differently from Exoteric ones, in the Order. The main difference is that they don't have official recognition, although nothing really stops from creating a setting where MC are an officially recognized social network which work parallely to the Houses. It would go for added options for political intrigue, and it would take but a Great Tribunal ruling.

I'm not saying it has to be the mandatory model, only that barring overwhelming reasons to the contrary, I deem it the most likely model to develop.

Other SG may want to postulate contrary powerful factors that manage to stymie the evolution of MC toward openness, and good for them. personally I quite loathe all this cloak and dagger conspiratorial stuff, and I see no overwhelming reason in the setting or rule system why it should be implemented nonetheless, instead of a model where Mc set up shop openly.

Cults are not necessarily focused on the mysteries of one svhool only, to the exclusion of any other insight. Many cults mix insights, e.g. alchemical and astrological insights.

But since IotS is so useful to immortal magi, and the cult is about pursuing it, it is more likely that some Mystagogue thought of developing a Script for it, and therefore it is more likely for the cult to have it, than the contrary. Both may happen. But given exceeding plot-driven reason to the contrary, it is more likely to the former than the latter.

The Order is, among other things, one big marketplace for the sharing of magical insights. This makes very very likely that MC which openly advertize and proselytize in the end will bloom and grow and become the dominant model, while the conspiratorial ones will become marginalized and likely only survive for the ones that strongly share their ideology. Successful MC will never die out, since new generations of mages will always be there in the need of Initiations for the Virtues they offer, but even if in your saga hasn't happened yet, it is unavoidable that MC will arise which are like the Children of Hermes in structure, and over time, they will become the dominant model. For the very same reasons why the OoH has become dominant among the magicians of Mythic Europe. Theirs is the most efficient, successful model for mages to propser, and the setting or the rule system provide no overwhelming reasons why the same model should not come to dominate MC, too. It may not have happened yet in your saga, just the way the OoH could not have arisen. But once it does, and takes some root, it will come to dominate the market, so to speak.

It may not happned yet in your saga, I concede it, but I contend that is the by far most likely course. So bear with me if I speak of it as the foreordained conclusion. :wink:

This I readily concede. History is never entirely predictable. I just contend that barring exceptional and unforeseeable factors, my model is the most logical and mutually-beneficial and therefore likely to happen from hermetic magi POV.

Sure. This does not stop one vision to be more reasonable and likely to happen, the history and structure of the Order being the same.

On the latter point, let's agree to disagree. Given the ample place the social practices of the Order allow for secrecy, and the fact immortal magi have much less need for mundane support (they don't eat...) and therefore can afford seclusion much better, Mythic Europe could well harbor dozens or even a hundred of immortal magi between alchemical, faerie, animal, and ghost ones, not to mention Daimonic ones (even if they are likely to be the minority). Immortals are not in direct competititon for any resource but vis, and they have greately reduced need for it (no healing, no longevity), so they have limited reason for suppressing the birth of new immortals.

But being too tight-fisted about sharing their own powers is just what ensures your insights will eventually be stolen, repoduced, or reverse-engineered, as dissatisfied mages will work to experiment, self-initiate, steal Scripts, and set up shop as rival Cults. If there is something that history shows, is that keeping too tight a lid of the spread of information NEVER works, no matter how much force you apply. Knowledge can be, with extreme difficulty, destoryed, but not kept secret forever. The Essential Nature of Knowledge is to be Free. :wink: Mythic Europe is not that much different, as any new Hermetic discovery unavoidably spread out in the Order in a generation or two.

I assume that at the very most, a MC can hope to charge 2-3 years of service for every initiation they bestow, before members and perspective members grow dissatisfied and take steps to ensure that Initiation is available by other means. The very existence of Common Mystery Virtues, and the dissemination of the Automata mystery, is evidence that I'm right and that powerful social forces work in the Order to frustrate the efforts of greedy or paranoid mystagogues to keep their insights under too tight a lid.

The Children of Hermes are the wave of the future, just as Bonisagus was, like it or not. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

Of course. Hostiry si never a perfect line. But it's the most likely scenario.

But any mage that succesfully makes it also makes it exponentially more liekly that the insight will take root, and spread.

Yes, and Bonisagus could have possibly been an angel or a pagan god in disguise, and therefore no real Hermetic Breakthrough is possible without strong supernatural assistance, and the rules for Original Research are actually bogus. Anything is possible. But everything is not equally likely.

And other breed of immortals are magical humanoids, faerie humanoids, ghosts, or magical spirits. The very foundation of full immortality is that the mage transforms from human to some kind of supernatural intelligent critter. Great Beasts are animals in form, but otherwise they look quite similar to other kinds of immortal mages. They even routinely act as mystagogues.

Occam's razor. It might be so by SG's fiat (provided the players buy it; I wouldn't) but it would be wholly arbitrary, since there is nothing in the rules or setting that indicates so. See above, Bonisagus was an angel. Anything is possible. Everything is not equally plausible.

I don't understand your point here.

Sure, let's assume that the less generous cults charge 2-3 years of service and training instead of a 1:1, for every initiation. It still amounts to a fraction of an Hermetic lifetime. Anything more tight-fisted than that, and magi would seek (or create) alternative sources.

Indeed I would expect the more successful MC to grow to the size of minor houses, and become an unofficial parallel social network in the Order, and harbor several dozens of magi. Only the most paranoid and tightfisted (and therefore eventually marginalized and subsisting on fringe symphatizers) would be the latter case.

Hi,

I have been thinking about this thread recently, having leafed through the eleven AM supplements I bought for myself this holiday season.

I have a few beliefs and observations.

I don't believe a saga will suffer if the GM allows mystery virtues to be taken during character creation as part of a player's starting virtues, especially if the player also has to invest xp in the cult's lore.

Similarly, I think a GM would do well to be generous in making sure that a cult has a selection of virtues that will make players happy, provided these are obtained with appropriate scripts. The time one character invests in all these virtues may not do him as well as boosting Arts and Magic Theory, or enchanting devices. One character has a Cult Lore of 8, has spent ten years learning all kinds of cool virtues, while getting one or two flaws, but the other has an arsenal of spells and enchantments.


I think a lot of attention has been given to the immortality virtues, but I find these more flavorful than powerful.

Great Beast: You can attain this early in your career, and quite neatly, without the contortions required by other seekers of immortality. However, your character has become a powerful NPC of a kind that has not been seen in Mythic Europe in more than 50 years. Congratulations on your ascension, and please think about your next character.

Ascension to the Hall of Heroes: This seems to be the prize of prizes; not only are you immortal, but you cannot even be killed. Unfortunately, you can never earn and keep an experience point of your own ever again, but must depend on a tiny cult to invest vis in you. Without human attention, you are likely to be forgotten by all. Although you can theoretically boost your Might Score arbitrarily high, if you actually do so, no one will be able to summon you. Effectively, you get to choose between being weak but available, and being strong but out of the saga. In any case, you no longer have a laboratory and cannot do lab work, further weakening you. This is also the hardest immortality option to pull off, providing the best immortality but poor opportunities for growth and play.

Haunt of the Living Ghost: Were it not for the pesky inconvenience of having to kill yourself and the further inconvenience of becoming a prisoner, this is the best of the immortality options. You can still use fatigue but take no penalty. You still have a lab. The ritual will give you a very good Might score, and is simple. You are invulnerable to slings and arrows of misfortune, which pass right through you. But your range of motion is restricted. The right character might be perfectly content with this. Perhaps he is a Verditius or Bonisagus who never wants to leave his lab anyway, or perhaps he Haunts a vast, enchanted ship that can take him places, and is willing to possess crewmen.

Alchemy: You have complete freedom of movement, and you have the same advancement opportunities as a Living Ghost. However, your body is just as vulnerable as ever. Your Might will be less than a Living Ghost, at a higher cost of ascension.

Becoming: It is difficult to achieve a decent Might. Using your spells is the most expensive, because you pay Might per magnitude. Your spontaneous casting is pretty much gone. However, within limits, you can continue to gain lots and lots of experience, far more easily than the others.

Criamon path of the Body: Probably the best compromise, except you're so enlightened, so harmonious, you've gotta be an npc.

Any of these either end a career or stall it.


Immortality isn't where real power lies; when have you actually gotten to play a 300yo magus?

For real power in his domain, a character can start with Nature Lore 9+2 (Strong Faerie Blood, Affinity/Puissant, some years before apprenticeship, etc). Check out those powers!

Or ye good old Big TeFo+Focus.

Anyway,

Ken

[quote="Wanderer"]

[quote="The Fixer"]

Since IotS is so vital to immortal mages, any mystery cult that has immortality as a goal would have Scripts for IotS. quote]

I disagree. I'd note that the idea that cults get to pick which mysteries they have is false. Also, I'd like to point out that there are several who don't have this: the Path of Walking Backwards for example leads to immortality, and does not have this. Then again, they are physically immortal and don't have the problems remembering new stuff that other immortals do. Nevertheless, the approach that cults get to choose which iniations they know is false. It's one of the interpretations that the authors of The Mysteries wanted to disuade people from, because its secular and gamist. (As far as I understand them, of course.)

Secular and gamist fits me like a glove, since that's what I am, as a gamer and as a person. Radical secular, in fact. If we wish to go for labeling, I might retort that I fancy mysteries as broad-light research and mutual support confraternities much like Houses for like-minded magical scientists and mystics not only because they better fit my vision of magic, but also because I absolutely do not want anything of this pseudo-religious, pseudo-masonic conspiracy/cult freak narrativist nonsense in my gaming. I do find people overly focused on conspiracies and cults worrisome and pathetic, little wish to play one.

As far as I see it, TMRE and HoH:MC are "toolkit" systems that support playing both types of mysteries, and anything in between. That one of the authors seems to show more sympathy to one model, I chalk it to his personal play style preference, not a holy writ from Above. Had I written the book instead of him, things would be reversed. As things go, my model of playing mysteries is supported by canon bits like mysteries which are essentially based on self-initiation (Philosophers of Rome) or have a heavily syncretistic approach to mysteries (Children of Hermes), the fact that a sufficiently determined and talented mystagogue character can create a wholly new mystery or significantly steer an existing one in a new direction simply by creating a new set of Initiation script by experimentation, and the fact that at their core, typical OoH members are much more likely to be fairly secular (as much as the setting allows), rational, and practical magical researcher-mystics rather than obsessed conspiracy freaks or cult fanatics.

I will also add that my present gaming group appears completely at ease with the way we are playing mysteries, my style. The only ones that really hide are the ones that have something to hide: infernalists, and traitors to the Order (like the Cainites we are presently hunting). The vanilla Esoteric ones are an open secret within the Order: a determined and talented magus characters can always contact any one that exists and apply for membership and training (paying the right price of course) and can get a fairly accurate picture of what abilities they offer, with a little legwork and research. They are not so official as the Exoteric (House) ones, but they do not really hide, either. We find this the most confortable way to play them. Too much conspiracy gets boring and tiresome, real soon.

Duplicate, please ignore.

If that's the way you want ot play it, that's good for you, but I was talking about your character.

The intention of the Mysteries was, as I understand it, to model actual mystery cults, in which there are elements like worshipfulness and sacrifice of your own personal ambitions. The smorgasboard model you are suggesting takes the power from the external providers of the msytery (daimons, gods, faeries, whatever) and puts it all back inside the magus. This is a very modern way to see magic and worship and some of us like a bit more historicity.

Also, your Order is a lot more developed that the Order in the core setting, where a lot of really good ideas have never been followed up by magi. So, just because IotS is very useful, is no real evidence that anyone has ever followed that up. As an example, having a spare copy of all the really good books in Durenmar, in case someone botches and blows up the tower, is also a really good idea that is obvious to anyone with a passing knowledge of history, and yet, no such duplicate exists. This is deliberate: the Order doesn't work as well as it could in the core setting so that the PCs have the opportunity to make it work better.

OK...but I think Mysteries may just be the wrong tool for what you are trying to do, then. Not the mechanic, itself, just the erntire rest of the Mysteries concept.

If that's the way you want to play, I'm happy for you. To me, its kind of like using CoC to play non-supernatural forensic procedurals, though. I've done it, and it works and people enjoy it, but it doesn't seem worth getting the book if you can just lift the game's mechanisms wholesale.

I'm tempted to say a bit militant at times too -in the sense that even if your YMMV is recognised you seem urgent to also prove that any other way to go about it is somewhat misguided or totalitarian- as this debate very much reminds me of earlier ones about the Dominion and Mysteries respectively, where the lines have been similarly drawn and some of the same arguments repeatedly used. Honestly I think it is positive to experience differences in YMMV - as long as one keeps an open mind to what is the spirit of the RAW and what is personal preference. To often these debates have turned sour over preferences spilling over into heated fight over what is interpretated into RAW or even to the point of harrashing authors for postulated mistakes and/or ulterior motives.

The same issue as the one at hand was debated in the thread on the degree of tyrannical cults started by you and my opinion is still much the same. My personal preferences are still that Mysteries is a toolkit for the Troupe and not for the magus, and that even if the system is openended in the sense that is very versatile, this versatility is not open to characters. That is because I prefer Mysteries to be about stories rather than optimization, and that to me a mystery is at its core about the unknown. To me Initiation is not about a "trade", which to me demeans it, where the cult members "grow dissatisfied and take steps to ensure that Initiation is available by other means". That to me makes too mercantile an exchange rather than being something that is basically much more about passing an ordeal to be accepted as a member of a secluded group. And that is what Mysteries are about to me: a social construction, where albeit important, the gained Virtues mostly are of inferior importance compared to the socio-psycological importance of joining the group in question.

It is no coincidence that I repeatedly use the phrase "to me" in the paragraph above as I see that clearly as a YMMV difference between you and me Wanderer. But changing perspectives to the RAW, a month ago Erik Tyrrell took the time to present the relevant RAW references on this subject and as a follow-up to his discussions with you. I've noticed that you have yet to comment on that thread. This by no means interferes with what you prefer in terms of YMMV, but it does makes a strong case that the RAW at least didnt intend to offer magi the cherry picking of initiations.

Oh, just noticed something to add a little more weight to timothy ferguson's points.

If it's called "mysteries", isn't it because it's, well, mysterious? :wink:

I mean by that, no "open secret", no virtue lists and such. You get into a Cult, dedicated to something, just like real-world persons who enter the free masons don't really know what lies ahead the outer circle.

You're not alone in that perspective Furion.

IMS Mystery Cults exist only to pursue certain paths of personal development. Some are trying to keep alive arcane lore that would otherwise be lost, or are trying to follow the teachings or path of a particular magus. A rare few are searching for lost lore or following paths only recorded in myth or legend. But in every case an initiate is either in or isn't. With the four obvious exceptions no cult is going to permit any of this negotiating for particular virtues or what not.

Sure some cultists may investigate under-explored avenues of the cult's mystery and develop new paths that way. Or a cultist might bring some lore with them that creates a new path or further develops an existing one. But no cult is going to initiate someone who turns up with a list of demands. Indeed some Wizard Wars may result from cultists either breaking their vows of secrecy or for making demands or following paths that contradict the cult's Mysteries.

Of course mystery cults are not limited to magi alone.

I looked online for a dictionary definition of "Mystery" cult and found the following:

Now I think we may safely eliminate the word "religious" from that definition but the word "secret" must remain; a Mystery Cult without the secrecy is just a cult or societas.

Now maybe my perspective is a bit skewed because my wife and I have both been members of a modern real-life mystery cult; and I don't mean the masons. No we both joined a martial arts school (she for the Kung Fu and Tai Chi for myself). I can't speak much for the Kung Fu but Tai Chi is pretty much taught as a dance with a few exercise that make absolutely no sense at the time (but sound really cool and mystical; stirring the cauldron - pushing balls of chi around in your belly anyone?) But once you've shown that you willing to put the effort in and push through your limitations (and turned up enough) it becomes evident that the wavy-hands of parting the horses mane is actually a combined block and throw. A particular wrist twist when combined with holding someone's forearm can bring them to their knees and that whole stomach churning thing actually builds great stomach muscles and allows you to control your centre of gravity. And Kung Fu is even more of the same.

Now I'm not breaking any vows of secrecy by saying any of that because it's meaningless without the groundwork. There also aren't any vows of secrecy for that very reason. However there are things that any serious martial artist won't talk about because if they were misunderstood they would be dangerous. As a mystery cult any decent Kung Fu school is fairly self-regulating because once you're advanced enough to learn the 'inner mysteries' you're advanced enough to know how dangerous those 'mysteries' can be.

Now I didn't get very far with the Tai Chi because of a pre-existing medical condition, but the less said about that the better...