In character misconceptions and flawed ideas about magic

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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Recently for my current saga I've been running a tribunal session, complete with social events. One is a symposium held by a local Bonisagus to discuss the very theoretical question "what is the underlying nature of the realms?". This led to an interesting thought exercise - trying to write several distinct theories that characters might hold to, which were neither wholly wrong nor entirely correct.

It got me thinking that in real life in academia for every speculative question in a field there is or were usually several competing theories with proponents and detractors, sometimes rising in popularity or falling out of fashion. Only one can be correct in the end, but for some questions the evidence to prove this beyond reasonable doubt often takes a very long time during which a sizeable portion of researchers end up defending fundamentally flawed ideas.

What ideas might be circulating in Mythic Europe, or the Order specifically, in the 13th century in this vein? What misconceptions and flawed beliefs exist in the Order? Are there older magi who refuse to accept ideas that have been readily adopted by the younger generation? It's an interesting problem, trying to intentionally think in-character with flawed reasoning based on only limited in setting knowledge.

Has anyone had a character (PC or NPC) who held a clearly incorrect view of some aspect of magic, or who had a very unusual theory about some part of the setting? If so I'd be very interested to hear what so I can steal draw inspiration from them.

P.S. These are the flawed theories about the realms I came up with for NPC magi to argue in favour of if anyone's interested:

The Four Realm Theory

There are four realms which are comprised of distinct substance. They are fundamentally separate. The divine is the creative force, magic the realm of ideal forms, faerie the realm of perception, and the infernal the realm of destructive force.

Evidence used in support: There are four distinct types of aura which have a specific interaction with effects stemming from each of the realms. Spells must be designed for a specific realm and cannot then effect the others.

Evidence used against: The work of Conciatta. Beings and powers which stem from two or more realms: dark fae, faerie magic, chthonic magic.

The Two Realm Theory

There are two realms comprised of distinct substance. The moral realm is comprised of divine and infernal, which exists at the allowance of the divine only to allow men free choice between good and evil. The existential realm is comprised of magic (relating to what tangibly exists) and faerie (relating to what exists only in the minds of men). The moral realm precedes and is superior to the existential. The limit of the infernal stems from the limit of the divine.

Evidence used in support: Faerie magic, both the divine and infernal are in some ways immune to magic and faerie powers (miracles, demonic deceptions).

Evidence used against: Dark fae and chthonic magic are tied to an existential and a moral realm. The source of the limit of the infernal has not been proven.

The Emanation Theory

The realms are comprised of one substance and the differences are due to each emanating from the superior realm. The Source is beyond and yet contains all of existence. From this emanates the divine, the realm of creative force. From this magic, the template of the mundane world containing the platonic forms. From this mundane. From this faerie, a reflection of the material filtered through mortal perception. From this the infernal, the realm furthest from the source and absent of all good.

Evidence used in support: There is at least one example of cross-realm powers for each combination – dark fae, holy magic, chthonic magic, faerie magic, possibly St. Nerius, Durendal, dark magic is a three realm power. The research of Conciatta. Vim effects all realms under a single form.

Evidence used against: There is no evidence of a divine-infernal power, and this may be logically impossible. The infernal is not lesser in power than magic or faerie.

The Two Property Theory

The four realms, like the four terrestrial elements, are defined by two properties in different quantities. The properties are interest or disinterest in humans and benevolence or malevolence. The Infernal is interested and malevolent, as it actively seeks to corrupt the hearts and minds of men. Magic is disinterested and malevolent, not caring about humans and being inherently inimical to them (social penalty of the gift, magic warping). Faerie is interested and benevolent as it is formed entirely from the desires and thoughts of men, making it the most human of all the realms. The divine is disinterested and benevolent. It has the power to quash the infernal but instead allows the infernal to tempt mortals, perhaps for the sake of free choice. Nonetheless there is a benevolent, if ineffable, reason for this.

Evidence used in support: Both the infernal and magical beings produce instinctive revulsion. Magic and infernal warping is generally harmful to mundanes, while faerie and divine warping is more often beneficial or neutral. The infernal and faerie realms actively engage with humans, while the divine and magic realms remain distant and only rarely interact with people unless sought out.

Evidence used against: Miracles and divine intervention are sometimes unasked for indicating divine interest in mortal affairs. The theory does not explain cross-realm powers. Faerie is often harmful to those it interacts with. There are indications the penalty of the gift can be overcome (baths of Aquae Sulis, the parma magica, certain virtues).

Edit - Some new theories based on ideas suggested in the thread:

The Magicocentric Theory (Faerie Dominant)

Magic is the sole original realm. Faerie is an emanation of magic and thus secondary. The divine and infernal realms emanate from faerie, drawing similar power from human virtue and human vice respectively, just as faerie does from human imagination. Faerie precedes the divine and infernal, magic precedes faerie.

The Magicocentric Theory (Balanced)

Magic is the sole original realm. The other realms arise on the interaction of magic with humans. Some proponents link this moment to exile from Eden, using Abrahamic imagery. Magic precedes the other realms but they are otherwise equal.

The Fabulocentric Theory

Faerie is the sole original realm. This theory proposes faeries to be capable of transitioning into other stable states under certain cicumstances, either entering identity stasis (magic), transforming to draw on virtue (divine) or on vice (infernal). Thus all realms arise out of faerie gradually over time.

The Fabulocentric Theory (Mundane Originalism)

The mundane precedes all realms of power. Faerie arises out of human imagination and then splits into the other realms as in the core Fabulocentric theory.

The Astrological Transition Theory (Magic Dominant)

Magic is the only realm that existed in the ancient world. The other realms gradually began to spontaneously generate prior to the time of Christ due to the changing of astrological age from Aries to Pisces, culminating in a full transition to the current four realm model by the 4th or 5th century.

The Astrological Transition Theory (Magic-Faerie Dominant)

Magic and faerie are the only realms that existed in the ancient world. The other realms gradually began to spontaneously generate prior to the time of Christ due to the changing of astrological age from Aries to Pisces, culminating in a full transition to the current four realm model by the 4th or 5th century. The nature of the two earlier realms also changed, rendering some powers invalid and allowing new ones.

The Astrological Transition Theory (Cyclical)

Prior to the transition of the astrological age there were also four realms, but they shared only some aspects of the current realms. On the turning of the age they transformed into the current realms over a period of several centuries. Theorists tentatively have named these proto-realms Primordial (Magic), Olympian (Faerie), Astral (Divine), and Cthonic (Infernal). Another transition of this type will eventually happen at the end of the age of Pisces, giving rise to four new realms.

The Astrological Transition Theory (Mono-realm)

Prior to the transition of the astrological age there was only one realm but it cannot be easily identified with any individual current realm. Theorists label this realm the “Mythic” or “Preternatural” realm. On the transition of the astrological age this split either into Magic and Faerie, all four current realms, or Magic, Faerie, and Infernal – with any missing realms arising spontaneously ex nihilo.

The Pragmatist View

Pragmatists propose that the entire discussion is a circular one of theory building on theory. They argue that time would be better spent on finding applications of theory rather than arguing abstract and impractical enigmas. This view arguably represents the majority of magi.

The Contrarian View

Realmatic contrarians argue that, while an answer as to the nature of the realms must logically exist, that due to the flaws in every current proposal that the answer can only be found in an as of yet unproposed theory. There is no consensus on what this theory may be, the contrarian position largely consists of simply pointing out that it probably exists and very likely isn’t one of the current proposals. This position is popular with young magi and Tytali and very frustrating for everyone else.

The Theological Theories

Some magi adhere to the doctrine of a particular religion in regard to the origin of creation, and hence the realms also. Followers of Abrahamic faiths attribute creation to YHWH, in some cases the infernal to the fall, and often the other realms as divinely ordained aspects of creation or as results of exile from Eden. Pagans adhere to the emanation theory (Platonists), or some variant of the magicocentric or astrological transition theories – often an idiosyncratic variant. Followers of more obscure (in Europe) religions may have their own unique theological interpretations.

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Another theory- the branching realms:
All realms are of one substance, adapted to the world in differing ways. Magic is the original realm, comprised of what is, prior to human existence. Numerous ancient myths speak of humans being created by entities (titans, etc) known to be of the magic realm. Once humans existed Faeries came into existence, tapping into human creativity as a source of power.
Many of these same sources refer to humans being given knowledge or authority over good and evil, right and wrong. As such many faeries were able to further explore this power and developed their own association, tapping in not merely to potential but belief, and formed then into the divine and infernal realms based on the polarizing beliefs of humans.

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Here are some more potential schools of thought on the matter:

The Pragmatists
The pragmatists adhere to the thinking that "this is all theories about theories" and that discussion about the subject is a waste of time that could be better spent finding some useful applications of theory. (Note that the pragmatists need not be right about the perceived lack of applicability). The pragmatists often claim to represent the silent majority of magi that dont have their head in the clouds.

The Contrarians
The contratians like to point out that yes the realms exist and yes there must be exactly one true explanation for why and how they exist but it does not logically follow from the premises that the true explanation exists among the proposed explanations. The contrarians reject all of the existing explanations in favor of looking for the true explanation elsewhere. There is no consensus among the contrarians what that true explanation looks like or where to find it. The contratians are mostly young and composed of members who reject existing dogma in general. The contrarian position is often adopted for the sake of argument by people who do not belong to the group but who are out to stir up trouble, since it is often easy to provoke an argument by refusing to acknowledge any of the existing positions without being willing to commit to a postion oneself. This fact gives the contrarians a poor reputation among magi who care.

The theologians:
The theologians are magi who identify strongly with one of the religions in Mythic Europe. Exactly what religion varies, however the Theologians all have in common that they consider the explanation put forward by their personal religion to be the true one. Undoubtedly most a catholic christians who favor whatever church doctrine on that matter is but you can also find orthodox, muslim, jewish and various pagan members of this group.
Note that I treat the theologians as a single group despite what exact religion individuals adhere to but that they themselves would find that idea offensive.

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There are a few pagans amongst the "theologians" who in fact see Magic or Faerie as THE TRUE realm, with the second a mere emanation of the first. To them, the Infernal and Divine realms are merely human creations from a misunderstanding of the True realm and use the monotheistic fall of man as an example of this: Man in Eden (which is either magic or faerie) did something terrible and was cast out into the mundane world, itself the overlap of the divine and infernal realms. They tend to gravitate politically towards wilderism, and to Elder and Hawthorn gilds.

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The "emanation theory" I used would actually be a subset of the theologians here - it was written for a pagan magus who is a platonist.

I'm definitely going to include a contrarian in the symposium scene - a Tytalus for sure. In fact, there's a particular Tytalus NPC for whom it would be a great introduction, arguing that everyone else is wrong without actually arguing in favour of anything in particular, just for the sake of the debate...

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You could plausibly, but possibly inaccurately, argue that there is no evidence of the divine and infernal realms having existed in very ancient history. From that it's not a big leap to propose that they only came into existence fairly recently, perhaps when the astrological age began to change around the time of Christ (coinciding with the silencing of the oracles). That would render magic and faerie, or possibly even just magic if you argue for an even earlier magic/faerie split (titanomachy?) as the only "original" realm. Maybe you could even argue each astrological age has different realms.

While it makes some good points there's a lot of holes that could be poked in such a theory - but then that's exactly what I'm looking for!

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From the perspective of an in-game magus this argument could be a lot more viable than it seems at first. The very ancient past is very hard to know anything definite about for a magus, since you have to rely on accounts provided by unreliable sources. For example it is written in RoP:D that there is an angel for every blade of grass etc. However as far as I am aware it is very hard to find evidence for this in the bible, with the statement instead issuing from 13th century catholic doctrine. If a magus is made aware of any such discrepancies it is easy to argue that the divine behaves more like faerie in that it is shaped by human beliefs. Such an observation would discredit the idea that the divine is objective and connected to a higher authority with power over all. Perhaps there are magi alive who are old enough to remember a time before church doctrine postulated something that is considered to be true in 1220 and who might have investigated the divine and found that evidence of a newer claim only appeared after the claim was made.

Of course any such belief would not be consistent with canon but it could be made up by an in-game magus who has not read the rulebooks.

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Oh and I forgot to mention it but this topic is brilliant. Ars Magica needs more content about how magi view their world, through whatever flawed perspectives are available to them. KUDOS from me.

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Ars Magica needs more content about how magi view their world, through whatever flawed perspectives are available to them

Makes me wonder, we got Legends of Hermes, which I loved as a supplement, but what about all the researchers over the course of Hermetic history who spent their careers in pursuit of fundamentally wrongheaded ideas and false paths (the Dunces of Hermes?).

Antimedes of Bonisagus, who spent 150 years trying to prove that each form had a supernatural equivalent governing vis and supernatural beings related to that form, until Conciatta proved that in fact all supernatural beings could be governed by a singular form, Vim.

Nothissima of Ex Miscellanea, a Criamon Gorgiastic who spent decades trying to prove it was possible to travel into the past through the magic realm. She is presumed to have entered final twilight, but a fanciful tale has circulated suggesting she succeeded but was unable to return.

Punctatus of Bonisagus, who received much acclaim for seeming to have discovered a new form which governs luck, both good and bad. However, his spells seemed to fail sporadically for other magi before ceasing to function completely shortly after his death. It is now generally considered to have been trickery involving faerie or the infernal, but a few crackpots continue to advocate for his theories.

Things in that vein.

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Now that is a supplement I would love to see :joy: That is a truly hilarious idea.

Although it will probably never be thanks for making me laugh.

Apart from hilarity you have a really solid point in that there must be mountains of useless research left all over the order of hermes and that these failures tell a story of how hermetics used to think wrong stuff about magic.

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Of course there is no right answers to this, as the question itself is a product of a fantasy creation. So the first thing you must ask is what are the guiding principles to be built upon in pursuit of answers to this question?

There is one guiding principle I suggest we should always keep in mind: Robin Law's Great Immutable Ironclad Law: "your goal as GM is to make your game as entertaining as possible for all your players" (Robin Law's of Good Game Mastering, p 5).

So, with that in mind your first project is to understand your players and develop your answer from their tastes and experiences. If they are all trained in the sciences, they will require a very different approach to this question than if they are trained in medieval history, or the humanities, and they will require an even different approach if they have minimal academic training and are instead products of modern media.

About the only other hint to go on is that the Ars Magica creators encourage us to first look to Medieval European history to construct our understanding of Mythic European history. For example: "Are there older magi who refuse to accept ideas that have been readily adopted by the younger generation?" Of course there was some important change going on in Medieval Europe of 1220. But I would contend it was going on at a much slower pace, and younger people were far less apt to rebel against established methods than today. With some substantial exceptions (like the influence of Arab culture) they were much more about looking back in time for the correct and true approach than looking forward to new, inventive change. So the "youngsters" might be more about adopting "ideas" from newly reintroduced ancient Greek or Roman text (recently translated from the Arabic) than in their own "ideas": their own creativity or inventiveness. Europe was-- in my opinion-- very much still in the midst of an inferiority complex. They could still see the remains of Roman techniques and constructions they couldn't hope to replicate. And some came back from Crusades with knowledge of Arabic medicine, art, architecture, cuisine, astronomy, crafting much superior to their own. So the misconceptions and flawed beliefs in the Order of Hermes you could introduce might be modeled on incomplete and/or misunderstood concepts from antiquity, and by concepts introduced by the Arabs. (For example Arabic numerals, which were just coming into Europe at the time.) That is-- unless your troupe are modeling Hermetic magic in their minds on the basis of a budding science (which would be completely a legitimate approach), then you'd be better off applying more modern scientific sensibilities (scientific method, experimentation as superior to appeals to "authority", peer review) to your solution to the issue. If they understand Hermetic Magic through the lens of modern media, you are going to have to look to Game of Thrones and Buffy The Vampire Slayer for the best approach.

But really-- and I can't emphasize this enough-- pondering the world views of your troupe and understanding how they imagine Hermetic Magic to be is far superior to finding an "expert" stranger here to give you the "best" approach.

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I updated the OP with some theories inspired by the ideas in the thread, though I don't have arguments for and against - just an overview of the proposal.

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