Incantation of Lighting and warping

Games Discussion Ars Magica
14

I side heavily on the "Auram is the Target; the burnt crispy remains are of the target" side of the fence. That said, I agree that massive magical effects causing warping is entirely appropriate - I don't think that such things are likely to arise out of standard Hermetic effects, however - certainly not from anything below 10 or more magnitudes and using a hell of a lot of vis. It seems unreasonable to me for a one-off effect to be more effective at warping than a year in a strong aura unless there's something very special going on.

I've always taken the vague nature of the high level effect condition for warping to reflect the fact that level combines both power and difficulty in casting a spell. Turning someone into a wolf (Shape of the Woodland Prowler) until the sun sets is clearly a greater effect than making someone larger until the next new moon (Preternatural Growth and Shrinking, boosted to Voice and Moon) despite both being the same magnitude.

Finally, however, I'd say that this is exactly the sort of thing where there should be a ruling in the RAW, even if one with wiggle room for, for example, creating persistent lighting within someone to slowly cook them. Where warping gets inflicted, whilst clearly always going to have some fiddly questions in the corners, is pretty integral to the function of Hermetic magic and so does need to be well defined.

15

Possibly. But I think for this discussion the RAW basically settles it. The spell is of high enough power and not designed for the specific person it's cast on, so should cause a Warping point (which is pretty minor all told), and because the Target can resist the effect with Parma or Magic Resistance, that means the Target is the person struck.

Now then, I can certainly see how there some potential inconsistencies with this or other disagreements. But if someone wants to just know if the RAW supports Warping for the IoL I'd say definitely yes.

16

You know what? I'm going to take some of this back.

The MR argument still applies, but the Warping might not. Per the sidebar on 113. Creo Targets are always the thing created. So while the magically created lightning doesn't need to be aimed, it is still resisted, but the magic does not directly affect the person hit. The magic conjured the lightning.

Wtth that interpretation, the only Creo spell that should cause Warping should be ones that deliberately do so (The Gift of the Enigma).

17

But then, what about Spell/Rituals that are designed to permanently make someone stronger? Creo Corpus Rituals. Ideally they will be designed for the individual, but these are usually of very high power. Who is the Target then?

18

That is about Creo spells that create something. This just tells us that if a Creo Auram spell only created lightning, then the Target would be the lightning. So, yes in some sense the lightning is a Target of this spell, too.

But if all this spell did was create lightning, then it would be Touch Range (as the lightning origninates from the caster's hand) and the spell would not need to Penetrate the crispy bandit's Magic Resistance it would need to be Aimed with Finesse instead. And the bandit could be within 100 paces instead of Voice Range, as 100 paces is size of the base Auram Individual.

However, in this case, this spell Incantation of Lightning is not designed like that. This spell does not just create some lightning, it targets an Individual thing, the bandit, with a bolt of lightning. The Range of the spell (Voice) is the allowable distance from the Caster to the Target (the soon-to-be-crispy-bandit). As the bandit is the Target he gets to resist with Magic Resistance. And, finally as he is the subject of a Powerful Mystical Effect he takes a Warping Point.

And the spell description even refers to the thing you are shooting the lightning bolt at as "the target".

19

This discussion of warping bothers me a little. Considering the effects of warping (flaws especially). If you get some level 30 spells cast on you for any reason, you could end up warped with more flaws. I don't think such should be such an easy thing.

Your mage casts image of the wizard torn 5 times during the year (ReIm 30) and suddenly they are more likely to go into twilight, they are have warping points. Cast a level 30 healing spell on someone and they get a warping point (even if it is ritual, momentary).

Cast peering into the mortal mind to read the information from your scouts and your scouts are warped. I would say that brief high level effects should be defined by 1) what is high level, 2) what is brief.

As I said, my personal view is that momentary should be too brief. The magic affects and is gone so fast that there is no warping. You get charred from IoL or some CrIg spell but you aren't warped by it.

20

As I understand it, that's the whole point and intent of the warping rules, and why they apply to non-mages, unlike the old Twilight mechanisms. And one good reason why Criamon's contribution was so significant: Twilight is better.

No. They are the one casting the spell -- they don't get warping from it from it being high-level.

That's the price to pay for magic healing.

You probably designed the spell with one specific scout in mind, who will not get warped.

21

Why would a mage invent a level 30 spell tied to a single scout when they would have to use it on many scouts and for many years. At several seasons per spell (A lab total of 45 means 2 seasons), this would be a waste and seems unreasonable.

22

Yes, but it keeps them from warping. It's your call - do you want your scouts to stay un-warped, or have the utility to replace them when the flaws start adding up? You can't have your cake and eat it too, y'know.

Or, I suppose, you could just hire trustworthy scouts and ask them, like a mundane would.

23

Because as I understand it, a spell can only be designed with a single person in mind. If you are feeling generous, you could allow a spell mastery option that allows up up to your spell mastery score additional persons.

If you don't like the rules, you can change them.

It's up to an individual magus to decide whether he values the well-being of his covenfolk more than his own time. You would eliminate what I perceive like an interesting dilemma for the players.

You could find ways of communicating with them that do not involve casting high-level spells at them. Imaginem spells targeting devices seem to be popular. Demonstrating creativity is part of what being a magus is about. :slight_smile:

24

Edit- Finally, not all flaws have to be crippling: remember that the Storyguide gets to decide what is appropriate! Witch marks make a great magic-related flaw to enliven stories with (thanks to JeanMichelle for the humorous reminder).

25

I am going to stand by my view that momentary is not long enough to qualify for the brief for warping purposes. Consider it is equal to a full year of effects designed or year in high aura.

Constant and casual warping like that is not something I want to dominate play.

26

Fair enough. How about momentary Creo rituals? Heck, how about momentary non-Creo rituals?

[I'm at home with a sprained ankle. All I have to do is post on the forums... I could use some CrCo... :unamused:]

27

Or, as others and I would have it, "The Range of the spell (Voice) is the allowable distance from the Caster to the Target (where the Lightning is created) which is also on top of the soon-to-be-crispy-bandit".

The issue is that target is used to mean two very, very different things. If you added a Rego requisite and a Diameter duration, allowing you to control ball lightning and move it over the victim after creation, would you still rule that that causes warping? How about a magus who, falling, lands on a magical pillow of cushions? Or a magus who lights his lab with CrIg spells?

For myself, anything that channels the power of 4 pawns or more of vis into you should probably cause warping. This does make instantaneous healing rituals les attractive, but then I tend to see that as a feature not a bug. As for other momentary effects, I think the guideline, rather than the final spell level, should be considered as more important. No matter how you cut it, a momentary spell to turn someone's bones to lead is more powerful than a long duration one to make someone's eyes green, even if you might end up with the same level.

28

I have found the definitive answer within the RAW."Something, the connection, is an Arcane Connection to something else, the target, if the connection was very closely associated with the target, often by being a part of it. Once the connection is removed from the target, the connection starts to fade..." (AM p 84)Therefore, unless you have an Arcane Connection to the bandit, he clearly suffers no warping, as he cannot be "the target" unless there is an AC (the connection) to him. You don't have to use the AC, but until you have it, he is simply not a target as defined by the RAW.

You're not going to convince anyone by quoting the rules, because altho' they may seem to be perfectly clear in one instance, in the next they contradict themselves in the usage of the word "target", and at no point do they make an effort to, specifically, define the use of the word "target". It all has to be taken in context - and that will vary based on opinion. Accept it.

On page 111, the first sentence under "Ranges" seems to strongly support the "bandit = target" theory. "The range of a spell is the distance to the nearest part of the target of the spell..."But "seems to strongly support" is not the same as "proves" or "defines". What is the "target of the spell"? Because the very next two sentences contradict that assumption..."Thus, the caster... can cast a Target: Room Corpus spell on the people in the room... The target of the spell is the room,..."So, the "target" is not always the thing that is listed as the target. Great.

And there's "Targets and Creo" (p 115) - which is pretty damn clear."The target of a Creo spell that actually creates something is the thing created..."Did the CrAu Lightning Bolt spell create the bandit? No? Hrmmm... then "the target" is... yeah.

And what about that next section, "Targets and Sizes" (p 115.)"Every Form has a base size for Individual Targets..."And, if we look at Aurum, we find..."Some target categories for Aurum require some clarification...
Individual: A single phenomon: one cloud, one wind, [color=red]one bolt of lightning. (AM p 125)Hmmm... So... where does a bandit fit into those? And how is the bolt, itself, not the target, when it specifically says (here) that is is?

Or is the target both the bolt and the bandit, but in different senses of the word?

The rules both support and deny both interpretations, warping and no warping. You can go in circles as much as you want, just don't pretend that there is any definitive "proof" one way or the other.* Either one is fine.

Say it with me: YOUR SAGA MAY VARY!

(* Until/unless the authors speak up. But I'm thinkin' they're too wise for that.) :wink:

(Personally, and despite all the above to the contrary, I would rule that, generally speaking, a strong combat spell like that does warp. Otherwise, mostly only Corpus and Mentem spells would cause warping. That's not anywhere in the rules, it's just simple meta-game logic - and it's the most convincing argument I can think of.)

29

The Target is Corpus - a body
The target is the spell's recipient.

In this case, both are the same, thus warping, whereas in a CrIg spell, the Target is the fire created, and the target is the charred remains.

30

This spell is the reason why IoL should not warp its victim. If it does, then so should this.

CrIm35 Wizencracker’s Witty Warper
R: Arc, D: Moon, T: Ind
Req: Intellego
This spell conjures the illusion of a speaking mouth upon the forehead of a target to whom you hold an Arcane Connection. This phantom mouth will drone on and on with witty wisecracks, rude remarks, and really bad jokes. You can control the nature and subject of the humor, and can speak through the mouth if you choose. You can also hear through the ears of the target, and can hold conversations with him or others through use of this magic mouth. This spell takes its name from the fact that it inflicts a point of Warping, because it is a 7th magnitude spell and constitutes a powerful effect. If it makes you feel better, you can chalk it up to the nitwit wisecracking driving you crazy.
(Base 2, +4 Arc, +3 Moon, +1 speak under command, +1 Intellego requisite)

NO! This should not cause Warping! It was just a joke! But if you are a killer DM and the very concept amuses you, feel free to use it to add humor to your game :laughing:

31

As the (noob) SG who asked Andrew about this, Hello Everyone!

It's very heart-warming to find so much discussion about a minor query I had. Thank you to everyone who's replied, I appreciate all your ideas. I have been lurking for the last 2 years, so it feels like I know some of you well already.

I find myself nodding in agreement with a lot of the arguments, but mostly i like the ideas of Warping as a result of higher level spells than the RAW suggest (Marko's suggestion), possibly limited to spells which either have a lot of vis put into them or which alter the victim in some way: Corpus/Mentem/some Vim (possibly also Marko's ideas?). Therefore, brief attack spells won't cause warping, but magi can certainly design spells that will...

I'll be putting it to the vote next session to see what the others think.
Coming from a 4th ed saga, where there are far fewer Twilight Points which are far more significant, I'm not sure how significant the exact numbers of WP are.

Do you all feel that magi gain too many too easily in 5th ed, or just right, or that it makes little difference to your games?

Ian

32

I feel Warping is too common and too easilly obtained. But that's just my opinion. I also come from a 4th edition background :smiley:

33

Welcome!

Some topics seem to be unexpected seeds for larger discussions. The rules often are easily misinterpreted, or parts overlooked or changes missed, especially from one edition to the next, or for players who are accustomed to different magic systems (from other RPG's.)

Warping does work differently than Twilight points did in 4th ed. I don't feel it's too much or too little, it tends to be very mage/saga specific. (Which tells me it's about right.)