A counter-quip made insightful, I love it! :mrgreen:
This really tickles me because ... well how would you roll to cast a fortunem spell? Surely by it's nature, a successfully cast luck spell would cause the die to roll in favour of the spell, whereas a failed luck spell would do the opposite, and a botch would cause the die to land on an edge and give no clear number... You're left with a rather chicken and egg time paradox. [Maybe you have to successfully cast a tempem spell to move your spell backwards in time to be before the actual roll, before you can cast the fortunem spells? Maybe all fortunem have a tempem requisite.] [Also, can you declare casting a tempem spell after the event? "Oh it's fine, I cast a tempem spell!" "You didn't say that" "Yes but now I have, and that's rather the point really..."]
As to the number of Forms in the Magic Realm, I will quote Dies Ire: "To the best of Hermetic understanding, there are at least ten Provinces in the Magic Realm, each associated with one of the ten accepted Hermetic Forms (see Realms of Power: Magic, page 24). Magi who gain knowledge of the new Form of Aether may recognize the associated Province on future visits to the Magic Realm."
So I think the "discovery" of a new Form would be entirely possible.
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In Legends of Hermes, page 15 it states "Some House Bonsiagus scholars attempted to extned the theory with further distint Arts, each covering as eparate supernatural realm, but these attempts died a natural death."
Its talking about what we know as Vim magic.
I mention this because it means that over the time of the Order there have been magi who tried to create other Arts. The previous attempts basically failed when it was proven 'easier' or more correct to just expand what the arts can already do.
There are so many ways to go about this. I do think that a fully new, fully functional Art would be Hermetic. I also think that having Fortune based effects in the already existing Arts could be Major with use of Virtue. That said, remember just because its Major or Hermetic doesn't mean it becomes any more impossible.
I have to say the idea of Time as a Technique intrigues me quite a lot. I think it could be quite fun to set something like that up.
My final note is that I was came up with the idea of 8 Techniques and 16 Forms as the potential set up. This would be the Techniques of Alter, Control, Create, Destroy, Mend, Move, Protect, and Know while the Forms are Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Plant, Animal, Machine, Body, Mind, Spirit, Illusion, Time, Space, Fate, Arcane, and Void.
EDIT: Oh, wait, my bad, this thread was from years ago. Sorry, didn't see the time on the post's other posts when I posted.
I think the key takeaway from LoH page 15 is that new arts are something that hermetic scholars have historically considered and that is not considered to be a violation of magic theory or too far out to consider. The reason why they were abandoned was purely pragmatic, new arts were unnecessary not taboo.
Regarding the distinction between considering a new art as a hermetic or a major breakthrough there are kind of two levels to that. The metagame level and the ingame level. On the metagame level the distinction between hermetic and major breakthrough is one of how many points are required. The in-game level is more about the language that magi use to talk about magical developments. We know that in the game only the Parma magica is considered to be a hermetic breakthrough (it violates the limit of magic resistance), but I would add magic theory to that, since we know from various hedge traditions that the invention of a unified theory of magic is a hermetic breakthrough for them. We also know that the Aegis of the Hearth is considered a major breakthrough. So in the language of magi the question then becomes more like: "On a scale from Parma magica to Aegis of the Hearth where would the creation of a new art fall?" which is a difficult question to answer. (I know that there are other breakthroughs to compare with but I stand by the general point, that how to classify breakthroughs from the perspective of magi inside the game is an excercise in futility (but a very useful exercise anyway)).
I am tempted to side with the majors/arters over the hermetics/virtuers on the classification of the integration of Fortunam into hermetic magic, but my choice is purely one of gut instinct.
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DI The End of Time p.59 has Aetheric Magic, that is the introduction of the Hermetic Form of Aether, as an Hermetic Breakthrough.
This helps to sort out, just which new Arts may be Major Breakthroughs:
- like those which mainly cover parts of already existing Arts, e. g. LoH p.14f and sub rosa #16 p.50 box Vim and Realm Lores in 865 AD,
and which are Hermetic ones:
- like those which cover and unlock significant new areas for Hermetic magic.
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I'd say, that this is the purpose of a long-running rpg forum.
You've seen this today: xkcd: Message Boards ?
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On the topic of 'luck magic integration', didn't Rival Magic have the Sorcerers be able to store dice rolls along with a suggested guideline (Re[Mu]Vi, if I recall correctly)?
The idea that Fortunam might convert from an Art into guidelines, rather than a new Art, is not as appealing but it would dramatically alters the number of breakthrough points required.
A new Art is a paradigm shift, so it should always be a hermetic breakthrough.
New guidelines, however should be a major breakthrough unless it skirts the Limits.
Of course the Learned Magician Tradition has...issues when it comes to integration. Hermetic magic doesn't like indirect effects, like say granting virtues.
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Rival Magic has the Sorcerers of Soqotra, who can indeed save dice rolls. There's also the Fertility Magic in Ancient Magic, which allows Magi to give an unborn child certain Virtues and Flaws.
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