Insights for (Hedge Magic) Theory?

What sorts of things can be used as Insights for developing a Hedge Magic Theory? I've always been a bit shaky on how that works. I've heard arguments that any effect can be an Insight, providing a source of study to reveal the structure of that tradition's magic, while I've heard opposing arguments that there are no "theory" effects to form items out of for practical learning and so it can only be done with Original Research. Part of me feels like that would invalidate how Bonisagus formed the Hermetic Theory, but some argue that he was getting Insights from previously-complete Theory texts to combine them rather than re-inventing and experimenting with the effects themselves. So... I'm at a loss. How does this work, and where does it say so?

Seems to me that you would make use of the Ancient Magic rules for this. You are not developing this as a Tabula rasa, after all, Hedge Magic exists. You should be collecting examples and teachers of Hedge Magic, and once you have gotten enough insight points from them, you have your theory.

Except that to gain an Insight, you need make a stress roll of Intelligence + (Hedge Magic) Theory against an Ease Factor of 18. :laughing:

What teachers? You need a Theory to give Insight through teaching. :stuck_out_tongue: But yeah, I'd err on the side of "any relic, text, or book regarding a different ability or effect than one you've already drawn insight from can be put towards Theory-making" even though there may be some language conflicts with strict RAW.

Edit: @Tugdual, lol, hope for lots of 1s? They happen plenty often with Aging rolls, it feels like, so...

Ah, no. For a "teacher" to be a source of Insight under the Ancient Magic rules, they must be an "individuals who possess the Supernatural Abilities associated with the ancient magic (Hedge Magic in this case) and are able and willing to instruct a Hermetic magus". Page 8, Ancient Magic. Also usable : Texts, Relics. Plenty of both around for Hedge Magic insights......

Try "any Hermetic device or lab text." The Order of Hermes probably has the most comprehensive Magic Theory in existence and it informs just about everything they do, so Hermetic theory could easily be used as a basis for developing, say, an Elementalist magic theory. Likewise, if you're developing Hedge Magic Theory by Integrating Hermetic (or Folk Witch) concepts, you could make a case for using the Hermetic/FW Magic Theory for your rolls. (Which would explain how Bonisagus did it.)

mariojpcsimon.blogspot.com/2014/ ... ca-ix.html - One example. I got all the traditions of Magic with Gifted members and Magic Theory, changing the way to use the Elementalist Theory. Firstly, theuy could create spells than doesn't comes from their default Guidelines with their Arts (Any one could summon one sort of animals with Summoning), but only with formulaic spells, and the spells must be so precise on that format like the Hermetic (He could summon one kind of being or adding some AC, one creature and binding withour that problem). And so on...