intellego spell questions - which way is north?

Didn't say that.

IMO, I don't believe that you can actually determine the time of birth from InVi or InCo. Perhaps InVi(Co), but perhaps not everything then. Not everything is possible with Hermetic Magic, that is a long established fact.

nod There is a published guideline, though. I don't feel strongly enough about this issue to suggest that it be ignored. But once I'm taking that one, I'm willing to consider location too.

I'm looking at the guidelines, at least accumulated through 8/24/12, I don't see the guideline. The time frame suggests that it includes TMRE.

Hmm. Or maybe it's a spell? It is in the astrology chapter of TMRE

No, it isn't, that I can see.

Maybe you could use ReVi to summon Polaris, the Daemon of the north star, and ask it? :wink:


Sense the Hour (InVi:10) combined with looking at the sun's location could give you north...
I'm also thinking that 'discern an astrological factor' from InVi:5 should be able to point to Polaris...


Polaris is beyond the lunar sphere, so InVi might have a problem.



in Art & Academe, on p72, there is a spell in the sidebar...

It's an Intellego Corpus spell, level 15, and it tells the caster the place and time of the target's birth - specifically for use in astrological stuff.

Make of that what you will.

all astrological 'factors' are beyond the lunar sphere, and yet the guideline exists. Perhaps things which are beyond the lunar sphere but which influence the space beneath the lunar sphere can be detected via InVi magic by way of their influence?

If Polaris is a Daimon, then it presumably lives in the Magic Realm, not somewhere in the mundane world beyond the Lunar Sphere.

Is it just my understanding or has the importance of the Lunar Sphere gone down radically in AM5 vis-a-vis other realms?

This pretty much summarizes this thread. And this forum.

Much less chance of a botch with this, but before lunch, look up, find the Sun, put it on the right! After lunch, put it on the left.

If it's too foggy, then InHe or InTe and ask a tree or a stone which side warms up in the sun first.


I knew that there was a spell out there that did it. I thought Ovarwa was on the right track when he suggested it was TMRE. I still have issues, even though it is canon. The body doesn't know it's date of birth, nor it's chronological age, IMO. I'd be inclined to allow it as an InCo(Vi) spell, which is still low enough level with the realm of being cast by virtually any magus.

"The greatest magic ever discussed at great length."

For a magus to answer this, he has to define North first. Usually he will do this astronomically, hence will look for the direction to the North Celestial Pole, which by Aristotelian astronomy as described in A&A coincides with the Geodetic North Pole.

Once the magus made that decision and found his position on the ball representing Earth in his Armillary Sphere, he can also show North from that position on the ball. But to show real North he still has to align his Armillary Sphere to the heavens. This can be done by magic, as shown on TMRE p. 53: determining the position of all the planets and the celestial sphere of the Armillary Sphere is Base 10 InVi ("discern and measure all astrological factors in the environment" by TMRE p.51 New Intellego Vim Guidelines). If the only factor to discern is astronomical North, then the effect is Base 5 InVi only ("discern and measure all a single astrological factor in the environment" by TMRE p.51 New Intellego Vim Guidelines again). As already stated in this thread, these New Intellego Vim Guidelines do not require any specific TMRE virtue to use.


InIg5 Compass of the Vigilent Flame
Base 1 Locate a Fire, +4 Arcane
This spell tells you the location, direction and distance, to a fire which you posess an Arcane Connection to.

The tricky part is that the AC endures only so long as the fire does. But with ACs from two different fires, and some thinking, one can triangulate their location and direction.

To me that seems to be thinking a little to concretely. I think sometimes ArM players, myself included, should probably think more Magically. Shouldn't Intellego magic be able to discover information about a Target even if it is not really contained within that target?

Concrete thinking comes back into it though when you get back to the OP. Because of how effects are built it's tricky to find out general information. Because well what are you targeting when your trying to find out "Which way is north." But IMHO it's easy to figure out "Is this stick pointing North" because you target the stick. So basically any InFo combo can answere the question with a little creativity. Just my read on this question anyway.

Maybe. But Intellego shouldn't be able to impart knowledge, which the InCo spell does, it provides you the knowledge to be able to work a horoscope, the date, time and location of birth. Certainly acquiring such information that is "magical" should veer closer to the Form of Vim, rather than the Base 5 InCo effect of "Sense a specific piece of information about a body." That's not information about a body, it's information about the body's location at birth and the date and time of birth against the celestial backdrop of time. InCo can tell you any specific information about the body as it is now. I just want a little bit more effort (and it's not much) to determine date, location and time of birth.

No, the map is blank except for you and the compass rose (perhaps you want a scale too). You are located in the centre (say). The compass rose is somewhere on the map in any orientation. The Inexorable Search points to a place on the map where the grog is. Because you can also see where the grog is (i.e. "she is physically just over there"), you now know the compass bearing to the grog.

But that's a different spell; equally viable, but just not useful in this circumstance.

The magus can make up a direction spell that provides the location as "thataway". Or the magus can make up a direction spell that provides the location as "north west". Or the magus can make up a direction spell that provides the location as a point on a map (as The Inexorable Search does).

Nothing to do with what the SG says, it is about what the magus decides the spell does. All three options "locate" the body. They are just different spells built with the same guideline.

The body doesn't need to know its location. The InCo spell determines the location of the body (and relays that information to the caster is some manner that the caster has designed). The caster knows where the body is, because he cast the spell to determine that.