this is your choice, and well, if it works for you, no issue (still wait for any usefulness when transient AC should absolutely be forbidden unless wanting to make anything an AC to everything)
Still, ArM5 says than an arcane connection is defined by a very close association between the object, not a quick and ephemeral association. There's table on how many time an AC will last, and the shortest duration is hours...
If you create an arcane link to every place you walk in, then by end of days, you will have such links to every place you have visited... a servant's broom is a link to all place in the castle it was used to clean during that day
The location an object is located at is only that, its current location. Acquiring an arcane connection would require the object to dwell here for several hours, days or years to the point of being mystically linked to the place.
Now if you want to create spell linked to the location the object/person you have an arcane link to is currently... Do it, some intelligo spell effectively use this kind of method (summoning the distant image InIm25, ArM5 p145), affecting directly something that way is written as an arcane limit (The limit of arcane connection see ArM5 p80), but these spell use such relation without direct impact on target location (breakthrough or not? DM choice)
By fact the only interest of a location arcane link is than this link doesn't change as soon than this object change location, otherwise it's absolutely not useful as the only location link you will have with an object is the current location you and the object are in...
the familiar is an AC to that room WHILE he is touching it. The moment he leaves the place, he stops being a connection to it. It is fairly easy, really. At the end of the day he is not an AC to all the places he has been, since it is not touching them. Touching is a fairly close association.
I will happily accept that a familiar has an arcane connection to a location while it is touching it.
What I don't necessarily accept is that this actually matters for the purposes of this discussion.
Arcane connection is not a transitive property. A mage has an arcane connection to their familiar. They don't have an arcane connection to everything their familiar is an arcane connection to. (And everything those things are connected to, and, and, and...) It's analogous to the difference between r: touch and r: prop. Touching something with your talisman would be enough as it counts as you. Touching something with anything else, including but not limited to your familiar, does not work. You could have the mage research a r: familiar or t: familiar as a minor breakthrough to accomplish this, but the capability is not currently part of hermetic magic. Your connection to your familiar is sufficient to teleport it to you - you have a current connection to both the target (the familiar) and the destination (somewhere close where the familiar appears, most likely within arms reach, which you are capable of sensing). It is not sufficient to teleport to a location near† the familiar, as the mage has no connection to the location he would appear.
An effect enchanted into the familiar bond would work, as the familiar would technically be the caster, drawing the mage to itself, and having an appropriate connection to both the mage and the destination. Likewise, sensing through the familiar would potentially work, as the mage would then have an appropriate connection to the destination. But the mere AC to the familiar simply isn't enough.
† Weirdly, your arcane connection would be sufficient to teleport inside your familiar, given a familiar of appropriately large size to contain the mage. You're welcome.
This status "touching is creating an arcane link" seems wrong to me, let's use some counter examples of such process application.
Can i use a building as a link to anything inside it?
Can i use the ground i am walking on as an arcane link to anything else touching it? Which means anything standing on the whole landscape around me...
If i use air the same way, do i now have an arcane link to anything in open air all around the world?
touching is a physical relation, not a mystical one.
(and i still repeat this other argument, repeated by bittergeek, this kind of location link wouldn't make any sense or usefulness as arcane links are not transitive and this would simply give you an arcane link to the location you are already in)
I understand that I may be in the minority. But I honestly do not understand why peoplle wantor even desire a precise scientific definition of the mechanics of magic in a game. I am not being smarmy. Well, maybe just a little. But seriously, help me understand this point of view. It seems that some people really like the faux science. If I could better understand what what they are seeking and enjoying, it may help me become a better player and GM. I understand the comfort of rules and the desire for an even playing field. But this very topic seems so micro pedantic that it confuses me.
I can tell you why I am rather enjoying the discussion.
I understand your concerns, and usually I tend to accept whatever it's fun at the table.
If I was the SG in a saga and I had to make a call, I would definetely have allowed the usage described. My short answer for the original question would have been yes. I hopped along this thread later on, when different opinions weighed in, and different approach emerged.
The reason why I sometimes nitpick on something is because I like to explore boundaries and to push them in corner cases. I felt that this could be one of those cases. I'm mostly for hand-wave a majority of issues, if they don't bring anything to the table.
I'm currently playing a saga with some real life friends, and many of the issues are probably going to show up sooner or later in our game. Sometimes my position here is not necessary what I think, but what I can expect from some of them
Yes, potentially. But it's not limited to that. It also helps me to better design something, or as an excercise in lateral thinking.
Sometimes at the table we tend to derail to nitpicking, but it's always as something we are all enjoying. When someone gets bored we just have a codeword and everything stops, allowing the events to move on.
There is away around the familiar teleportation issue, that our troupe worked out. Build the spell with Target: Circle, and an Animal prerequisite. The prerequisite makes it a bit harder, but still doable.
This brings up another way to do it. Rework the spell, Leap of Homecoming, to specifically apply to teleportation to touching an individual to whom you have an arcane connection.
The "TP to a familiar is fine" solution is played wildly. We don't need to discuss it more than it has been.
There are plenty of pro/contra arguments, and since it's a fictional world, with fictional rules, the final point is : do what is good.
Most players like it to work.
If a SG doesn't like it, he can make it fail. If his players are unhappy with that, they can say it and he can change back. If he doesn't and they are still unhappy with the bookkeeping (rock A (1248 - duration 4 years) from there (place changed, doesn't work, now go there), rock B (1225 - duration 10 years) from there, rock C (1238 - duration 7 years) from there...), they can quit and find another SG.
But I guess most players will just say: "I teleport to the place my familiar is in" and soon becomes: "I teleport to my familiar".
for my side, Ars Magica is more than other RPG a game where the DM can't have all powers.
I need players to participate into creating interactions, goals, story and other characters personality around the main saga.
It's especially true for magic, i want players to get their mage study magic theory to invent new spells and/or spells use, things i won't have though about directly.
And to do so, we need to share a common understanding of magic system.
So, not opening strange exception leading to loophole inside the system is a key here.
AC linked to touch is a loophole (provided examples already)
transitional AC is a loophole (didn't provide example, but it's even worst leading to link from anything to everything)
now if character wants to make such usages a key part of their character goal through breakthrough, then let's go
Another point is than Tp can kill saga, when wizard can inhabit alone on top of a protected mountain and tp to carry task all over the world, you kill a lot of saga component (travel, grogs usage etc...)
long distance tp are happily hard to design spells, and i certainly don't want a single leap of homecoming spell to be a single shortcut to a go anywhere instantly spell.
Been there. Our high powered saga ended up with grogs travelling in small parties. Generally flying themselves with enchanted items, but that is beside the point. The fact is that they carried small teleporting boxes that teleported small items to the covenant and rang a bell if they thought they needed a Magus. They wrapped the items in suitably colored ribbons to define what Magus they needed and sent small shields, wooden chairs or wands dependibg if they were needing combat, negotiation or investigation assistance. It meant that for our parties mages ende dupnstaying home, and were summoned by the away team when needed.
This also caused some issues and related adventures, but in general it ended up feeling we were playing marine corps and not Ars Magica.
In the end we have cranked all teleport spells 4 magnitudes upwards. Yup 20 levels. The only exception is portals. Now our mages need to be nearer the front lines.
Let me build on top of this, from my point of view.
I completely agree with you here. What I try to do is exactly trying to figure out why someting is valid without becoming a loophole. The nitpicking is just for pinpointing why in the specific case something could work (or not), and how it could trickle to other fields.
BTW, having said what I said above, I still do not see much loopholes to the examples by Ellone. A broom in a room is an AC to the room as long as it is there. If it remains for a long time there it will become a stornjger AC to it, but while it is there it is an AC to the room. Regarding the castle, yeah, no problem there either: In the same way the pencil in my hand is an AC to Planet Earth if I can add enough size magnitudes to the spell AND overcome the MR that it is likely to have with the spell I want to cast. that is not a real problem, Really, especially since said pen came with me to the office, so the moment I step out of the building it will still be a link to planet earth (but not the office anymore). That is not a loophole, it is a feature of how touch AC work.
Chain-linking does not work. if I have an AC to my familiar, I will be able to use it affect what he is touching. Mythic Europe for sure. and Paris as well if he is in a building there. But not London. Still needing to add a lot of size magnitudes.
In our game, there was a Necromancer in a neighbouring Covenant who got around this by wearing nothing but human leather and using bone tools.
He was accidentally killed and only some of his Coven-mates were really mad about it...
Edit: since there seems to be interest, my PC accidentally killed the necromancer. The neighbouring Covenant was attacked by evil Guernicus and his band, we flew in after the Aegis had already been blown up, to find out that the covenfolk were fighting a horde of zombies. My PC just used his Arc range attack spell on whoever was sending the zombies to kill the Covenfolk and dealt massive damage... This was a massive issue to explain at the following Tribunal.
I've heard about nailed down chamberpots on these forums, but never before about toilet paper ruining games... Then I figured out what was meant by "tp" a moment later. Yes, that's always been a worry for me. I generally find there are three things that can ruin fantasy games in general: healing being too easy (you end up fearing nothing but death, and maybe not even that), travel being too easy (you skip the adventure for little bits later on), and mind reading (you skip the adventure because you know everything). Ars Magica handles the healing issue quite well with penalties to learning and spending vis to heal. I personally handle mind reading by requiring understanding of a language to understand interpreted thoughts and the like, which is reasonable and makes it harder. Instant travel can still be a problem.
Wow this topic got really busy while I was away.
First, Marko, you probably aren't in the minority. I think most people made up their mind and didn't keep debating the issue. The first half or first third of this discussion, I was the minority thinking it shouldn't work.
I mean, I find the answer very simple; You can be a "lazy DM" and let your players use edge cases to their advantage, and skip half the stories about how people actually get to places with one of the most common spells in the order. Or you can be a rational human being that understands the joys in people using clean rules, and want a consistent feel to the beautifully designed magic system which uses hermetic theories and experimentation to test and find the boundaries and definitions of what magic can do. I honestly can't see why anyone would find merit in allowing this.
Joke aside, I admit I always tend towards a restrictive limitation on what can or cannot be done. I did find your comment to be a bit dismissive of people who disagree with you, a bit of a straw man argument. Anyway, my players know I'm cautious about allowing things to get out of hand, and I know this as well. If they feel I'm making a wrong call, we discuss it and find a group consensus.
I don't feel that a bird in a room is an AC to the room - not unless the bird has been there for a long time. I always think of the worst example of interpretations because I'm cautious of abuse - I admit that's a flaw of mine. If you get shot by an arrow, do you have an AC to the archer? He had it in his quiver for a day or two at least. I would argue not; The 'Days' AC uses 'a frequently used tool', which to me implies the apple I picked up and threw at you shouldn't be an AC to me. A 'favorite tool' is a 'Months' AC, so I feel there's a level of scale and mystical connection that isn't formed by 'my crow familiar flew into the courtyard, AC to there now.' My opinion of course, I just prefer the stories this way.
Clarifying: I don't think Marko's opinion is wrong, or bad (other than his belief that those of us having fun with discussing rules are Killer DMs who don't like fun). If I was a player in his saga, I would accept his rulings and have fun with them, because I think these decisions should be troupe and saga specific. I am a firm believer that adding a few limitations ot a game encourages creativity to deal with the problems.
