Is Flawless Magic really so good?

[ezzelino]

@EthanSteele

To take it in a slightly different angle, as only one of the examples other people have given have passed musterm what would a character that does make Flawless Magic worth it look like to you?

Roughly speaking, he should be a character with a lot of mastery xp, and useful mastery xp (5xp for Stalwart casting of Lamp Without Flame are not really that useful). The issue I seem to fail at conveying is that sure, mastering some crucial spells can be very, very useful. But how many spells do you really need? If it's not that many, just master them the old-fashioned way, spending a little extra time compared to someone with FM, and saving much more time by putting those Virtue points into something that cuts your Art studies in half, for example.

I think Roberto of Flambeau sort of passes muster, too. That's because he's a character with low Art scores, and tons of low level, formulaic spells. I would have to think more deeply about the character concept though, and how else I could create something along those lines. Still, I'd say neither case shows that the LM is anything close to "the single best Hermetic Virtue in the game."

Incidentally, note that I never said it's a bad Virtue, or one never worth taking! Just not as exceptional as some people make it.

[callen]

@EthanSteele

To take it in a slightly different angle, as only one of the examples other people have given have passed musterm what would a character that does make Flawless Magic worth it look like to you?

Here is where I consider it stellar:

1. You've got an adventurer who uses Rego craft magic and wants to be able to dispel well. You master your craft magic, and your main combat spells. You also take 3 or 4 realms of the same broad dispelling (non-Room WoMS) with Adaptive Casting, Fast Casting, Multiple Casting, Unraveling, Penetration, Quick/Precise Casting... Now you're looking at a minimum of 5 spells you want to have mastered well. I might well aim for 10 (maybe higher) on the counter magic and a main attack. Getting to 4x 10s in addition to a few others in the 5-6 ballpark could well be worthwhile.

2. You're going to focus on Rituals and have Imbued with the Spirit of (Form) so you expect to develop a ton and cast a whole bunch each season. You want to guarantee Mastery 1 in each Ritual. Meanwhile you also want some combat stuff like in #1, though maybe you're not so involved in that.

[ezzelino]

@callen

@thompsja

a bunch of grogs with enchanted devices to give fatigue to their masters is frightening, though.

Doesn't work. The device doesn't have Fatigue to give, and the grogs aren't considered the caster.

Doesn't work, but close.
Make it a bunch of grogs well-versed in Medicine who provide you with a steady supply of theriacs

[ezzelino]

@callen

2. You're going to focus on Rituals and have Imbued with the Spirit of (Form) so you expect to develop a ton and cast a whole bunch each season. You want to guarantee Mastery 1 in each Ritual. Meanwhile you also want some combat stuff like in #1, though maybe you're not so involved in that.

I think there are more effective ways for this, though I'd have to see more precise numbers to make a more precise statement.
That said, is there some reference in the errata that provides a somewhat definitive answer to how botch dice for Rituals -- particularly in otherwise non-stressful circumstances -- are assigned? I have seen a lot of discussions, and I seem to recall there was also some statement by David Chart, but as my troupe runs this by its own rules, I've sort of forgotten what the official stance is

[ezzelino]

@callen

Here is where I consider [Flawless Magic] stellar:

1. You've got an adventurer who uses Rego craft magic and wants to be able to dispel well.

I'd agree on this one. Basically, the fact that you have to cover 4 realms multiplies the amount of xp to a level where FM starts to pay off handsomely. You still cover them with a single Te-Fo combination, and probably a single Minor Focus, so it's not as if you'd benefit from a lot more Virtues there, or Major ones. Add Craft Magic, which only needs Finesse (which is good for your dispelling stuff too), and yes FM can shine here.

Though ... craft magic and dispelling are a bit of a weird mix Still, not an unreasonable character.

[callen]

@ezzelino

I think there are more effective ways for this, though I'd have to see more precise numbers to make a more precise statement.
That said, is there some reference in the errata that provides a somewhat definitive answer to how botch dice for Rituals -- particularly in otherwise non-stressful circumstances -- are assigned?

I'm not sure of any official statement. I has been pointed out that it would be reasonable based on the repeated casting of AotH. Someone looked at the stats on that, I think.

As for numbers, consider a CrCo specialist who makes many different Rituals for healing wounds, diseases, poisons, aging crises, and related stuff like lost limbs. Being so CrCo focused, the character does everything CrCo is great at, including making characteristic-boosting Rituals and creating revenants as servants. You'd could easily end up with over two dozen CrCo Rituals you'd want to be able pull off with no botch dice. Meanwhile, with really good Creo you might grab a CrIg and a CrAu attack spell (two for some variety for getting past defenses). These you want mastered to maybe 6ish, and you'll be really dangerous. While you may not be super-powerful with Perdo and Vim, the overlap with Flawless Magic lets you make efficient use of Adaptive Casting and Unraveling to develop strong counter magic to keep yourself alive. Maybe that's another three or four you might want at at least 6ish. (Yes, I have pretty much made this character for a game that ended quickly, and I was well along this path even though we were starting only about 20ish years past gauntlet.) Over two dozen Rituals and at least another 500 points into mastered spells, if not more, and Flawless Magic is looking good.

There are other ways of getting rid of the last botch die, but not many. Combo-ing this with Stalwart Casting to make using Imbued with the Spirit of Corpus more efficient fits with Flawless Magic, though. And the combat stuff also fits with Flawless Magic.

@ezzelino

Though ... craft magic and dispelling are a bit of a weird mix Still, not an unreasonable character.

It's actually a common mix for me. It goes this way: I tend to mix ReXx and ReVi, ReVi because of its massive utility, especially since I'm already doing Rego. Then, with Vim pretty high it's not hard to get into PeVi. And it's especially worthwhile as a combo if you're doing Flawless Magic (plus Independent Study so you can practice spell mastery really well).

[InfinityzeN (Troy)]

While certainly not the best character to draw ideas of how effective Flawless Magic is in RAW (our saga has lots of HR, along with a massively extended list of Mastery Abilities), here is the info on Orthon. Note that I have very much abused the free/bonus XP from Flawless Magic.

0. Lab Rat Researcher (He is no where near that now. He spends time serving as Covenant representative, exploring for things to help with Integration, the Mystagogue of our Covenant Mystery Cult, and the odd combat/demon hunting)

1. 105.25 years as of the last session.

2. 91 and 30.

3. 1359 (actual cost 452) and 376 (actual cost 113).

4. The extended list of Mastery Abilities makes Mastery much more valuable (Knock-on effects include increased value [and thus availability] of text on spell mastery).

His highest Mastery Level is 5, in PoF, AoFR, Infernal Might Stripper, Faerie Might Stripper, and Magic Might Stripper. He has a 4 in Ghost Might Stripper, Call to Slumber, Unseen Porter, Intangible Tunnel, two versions of Maintain the Demanding Spell, and Aegis of the Hearth. He has a 3 in the varies Attribute Booster rituals (for Soft & Efficient casting), Watching Ward, tIoL, BoAF, Sight of Active Magic, Wizard's Communion (works as it did in prior editions, ie on Rituals), Veil of Invisibility, the Realm Wards & Ghost Ward, and another version of Maintain the Demanding Spell.

I know some on that list might sound strange. Call to Slumber is (Multi, Still, Quiet, Disguised) and allows him to non-lethally drop masses. Unseen Porter is (Multi, Still, Quiet x2) with Range: Sight, which means things just move how he wants them to.

One side-effect of having Flawless Magic is that if something happens in the Saga which causes the character to have to develop combat capabilities, they do it far faster and more efficiently than other Magi. Originally had no Might Strippers and PoF as his only combat spell (with Mastery 1).

[Marko_Markoko]

@ezzelino

I am afraid I just do not follow. FM gives you xp. Nothing more! 5xp per spell invented, plus 1xp for every additional xp you put into mastery. That's all.

It also gives you access to a wide variety of Mercurian Mastery Abilities, which if you are being strict you should not allow others to learn unless they have a related Virtue (as per True Lineages and Societates)
Me, I do allow other magi to take these or learn them from Mercurians. But that is another ball of wax.

[Marko_Markoko]

@ezzelino

I think Roberto of Flambeau sort of passes muster, too. That's because he's a character with low Art scores, and tons of low level, formulaic spells. I would have to think more deeply about the character concept though, and how else I could create something along those lines.

Digging back through a dozen years of memory, I remember that I designed a character to be played. This was back when Play-by-Post was a hot new feature in the old forums. I remember there was some debate about penetration and the power of a newly gauntleted magus and wards and whatever. There was an example with Casper and his cousin Spooky. Very dim memory. Anyway, someone said it was to hard to do something, and I was like "hold my beer". I designed him to be able to cast Pilium of Fire with a regular Penetration score of 20+ without fail, to embody my ideal vision of House Flambeau, and to exemplify my knowledge of Spanish history. Everything that has slowly developed on top of that has been organic character growth of over twelves years of play (on and off). Self Confident probably his single most defining trait, and (imo) is the only other Virtue that has as much bang for the buck as Flawless Magic. I love Formulaic spells and Mastery already, and I just leaned hard into it. He is a spell specialist. And a soldier. And deeply introspective. It has been a total package experience.
Roberto had gained the Gentle Gift as a result of Transformation, so he has two Major Hermetic Virtues. Uncommon, but it happens. If he could only keep one, it would be Gentle Gift. He is matured and is weary of war, and just wants to live a normal life.

[John_Prins]

@callen

As for Flawless Magic, I commonly find Independent Study a better choice.

Independent Study is often overlooked and under-appreciated. It incentivizes players getting out of their lab and there's lots of stuff you can't just learn from books.

And it synergizes with Flawless Magic quite well, given that most mastery xp is gained from practice or adventure.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

I'm writing this with voice recognition so if there are lots of typos you know why...

Flawless magic is a experience point granting virtue, so can be considered alongside other experience point granting virtues. Each of these has some differences, such as how easy it is to gain these experience points, but I think they can be grouped together once these differences are understood, and even to an extent if they are not.

When considering a minor virtue, there are two basic types of experience point granting virtues. The first type only grants experience points up front and does nothing for the future. The second type grants experience points up front and offer something for the future. Affinities lie in the second grouping: they Grant experience points up front to the extent that experience points are invested in the areas covered by the affinities, and offer the hope for future benefit. Flawless magic is also in this category. You get five experience points in every formulaic spell you have at the beginning, and you double all experience points invested in it both at the beginning and in the future. New paragraph new paragraph

( There is a third type, which grants nothing up front, and grants experience points in the future. So we have a large value of two. )

I think it is fair to say for a minor virtue in the second category, that if you get 50 experience points up front and have some decent potential for the future, that you have a solid virtue. For an example, if I start off with an affinity that gives me 50 extra experience points up front, and into which I expect to dump more experience points, I have made a reasonable decision compared to something like baccalaureate or like good parents, which grants me more upfront but nothing in the future. New paragraph

A major virtue, by this logic, should offer me at least 150 experience points and Good Hope for future use. Hopefully, in a wider range than amir affinity. Flawless magic on its own, uncombined with other virtues, is not likely to meet this standard at character creation, except in an advanced game. A character coming out from gauntlet probably won't have 150 experience points in mastered spells. However, if he takes other experience point granting virtues which flawless magic can double, and if he has a bunch of formula expels, this becomes more possible. If the character plans to invest in mastered spells, flawless magic can be a great choice.

But I think it should be remembered that this virtue does not Grant any new capabilities. Some characters will want to invest in mastered spells and others will not. It's a great virtue but not for everyone. I don't know if this is better than specializing in a single technique and form and taking an appropriate minor focus Plus virtues to enhance that technique in form, and some experience point boosting virtues, but to some extent taking flawless magic works nicely in combination with that approach. New paragraph

Lifelinked spontaneous magic also works nicely with that approach, perhaps even better, because it allows dumping more experience points into the favored technique and form, which of course have affinities, and ignoring the others for now, because they are less needed since such a character's spontaneous magic is very good. It can also be combined with various vim shenanigans, but that is an entirely different topic, since I think the design of the vim vim form is a catastrophe, difficult to understand and often broken.

There are only three ways that I remember to eliminate the last box die from spell casting, and most story guides will only allow one of these in their game colon spell mastery. The other two involve either taking a mythic characteristic heroic virtue for stamina, or using cautious with ability for ceremonial magic and quite a few people will frown upon these to say the least. Players who hate the box mechanic, and consider it a horrible relic of the 1980s, will find flawless magic especially attractive.

Independent study lies in the third category of experience point granting virtues. It does absolutely nothing up front. In most games, it will never Grant very many experience points. I like this virtually virtues in fury but in practice games often don't last long enough for them to pay off. I sort of consider this a design flaw, because the selection of which experience point virtue you take is less about character concept and more about successful metagaming. I am all for powerful characters, especially in this genre, but the real distinction is about whether the player guessed right.

I think I've talked about this before on this forums, but I suspect that a future edition of the game would benefit from collapsing some of these virtues into new virtues that granted benefits up front and also some ongoing benefit. For example, we don't need both affinity with ability or art and poissant ability or art. These could easily be combined into something that granted a static bonus, plus one plus two or plus three, and one experient point in the relevant ability or art per season of play. Nice and simple. But I digress.

So yes, I think that flawless magic really is so good, but not brokenly good. Life Link spontaneous magic is also so good, but again not brokenly good. There are things that are broken, especially in combination with .

I don't think any of the major hermetic virtues in the Court rule book are as good as either of these two. Anyway,

Ken

[dc444 (nullsettings)]

I don’t see where you get “50xp plus an ongoing benefit” as a baseline for a minor virtue. Most up front minor virtues that grant xp grant 50, they aren’t the best extra starting xp virtues but they are the standard ones. Of the three exceptional ones (the 90xp ones), two are restricted to magi and one is a social status so really doesn’t fit most character concepts. Affinity only grants you 50 up front if you sink 100xp into that one thing which most folks aren’t going to do because there are quite a few things you really should have at least at low levels even if they aren’t your special thing you took the affinity for. I think the only time I’ve approached 50xp from one of these virtues at start was when I made a linguist character who, in addition to his native language, had a score of 5 in another and two with scores of 4, not quite 50 bonus xp from Linguist.

[loke]

@Samsaptaka

Yes, she would have lived without those levels of mastery, but she's undeniably better off with them. The point here is that she gets breadth with no adverse impact on depth .

Breadth. I think, is a key point here.

Flawless magic gives some of the benefits of Quiet/Subtle magic/Deft form, when you take relevant mastery option, to great benefit to shapeshifters and urban magi. If that is all you want, you are better of with the other virtues though.

It boosts the combat magus, with multiple casting and fewer botches, but the stereotypical Flambeau with 1-3 attack spells can just as well spend the extra xp.

Consider then the more versatile adventuring magus (I think of a Tytalus, but you may think of something else). There are a lot of spells you may want to learn to use in pinch; magical senses, athletic boost, attack, defence, mind reading, mind control, and flawless magic boosts all of these, both by reducing botch and by mastery options such as penetration/quiet/multicasting (depending on the spell effect).

If most of your spells are high action spells, it does make sense to master every single one of them, and @callen's reasoning of a season/year saved has merit. It is not really a question of XP saved, because the magus would not have had the time to get those XP in time for the adventure anyway.

I have made two magi with FM in the last 2-3 years, but I shall admit the main reason for choosing FM, was that nothing else tempted. Other major Hermetic virtues (except for secondary insight which is just feeble) are very narrow focus, and would only help with the fraction of what I wanted these magi to do. The versatility of FM made it right.

1. One was an Urban Mercere, played only briefly. I won't claim that FM was optimal, but I can still not see what I would have wanted instead.
2. A Rusticanus. They depend on formulaic magic, so they tend to invent more spells than others. 10-12 years after gauntlet he has 25 spells, but not spent a single extra XP in mastery. The mastery means, first and foremost, that he can make a lot of charged items in a short time, without having to worry about botching, even when he gets tired towards the end of the day or the servants interrupt, and he does make charged items from almost all of these spells. It is only 125 XP saved, but it would have taken 6¼ year to gain them in any other way, and that simply would not have happened.

Obviously, if the troupe thinks that a magus can cast 100+ downtime spells without worrying about botching them, because it is all relaxed by default, then the rusticanus' benefit from flawless disappears. YSMV

[callen]

@Marko_Markoko

It also gives you access to a wide variety of Mercurian Mastery Abilities, which if you are being strict you should not allow others to learn unless they have a related Virtue (as per True Lineages and Societates)
Me, I do allow other magi to take these or learn them from Mercurians.

Actually, you just have to be part of the Cult of Mercury. That is explicit. Meanwhile, there are suggested appropriate Virtues and Flaws, but none are required.

[darkwing]

@ezzelino

I particularly like Fulminata (which is, in many ways, a similar concept to that of Itzhak's battle mage: Flawless Magic + Mastered spells gives you a score of 6 in your mastering your favourite combat spell). But both her and Tabitha are too young to make it very clear to me whether Flawless Magic is going to be great or not for the concepts. For a one-shot (or for a saga lasting at most a few years after gauntlet) in both cases, especially in that of Tabitha, it's clearly not the most efficient solution.

I think I may have been prejudiced by the number of online games that barely make it through the first adventure before collapsing, IRL sagas (one lasted years, one six months, two only a few sessions, plus our lockdown game which is still running) and running one-shots for conventions. I may be favouring characters which can grow in an interesting direction and achieve character goals within a few years of creation.

@ErikT

The main cost for mastering a spell normally is not the XP it costs, but the time it takes.

My two Flawless Magic magi examples are Flambeau. Say the Perdo Ignem specialist goes to a Flambeau gathering and tries Dimicatio (from the Lion and the Lily) or is resident in Normandy and needs to win to get points for their team. If you are good at Perdo and Vim, you can just learn "Unravelling the Fabric of...." for each form, and if you learn fast-cast mastery you can be amazing at blocking incoming Hermetic spells. Helps with being a Dimicatio champion and also when fighting hermetic magi. The extra season practicing fast-cast would soon annoy you in a slow-paced game, but getting that first mastery level instantly and it only taking one season rather than two to get a second mastery level makes you feel like your character is progressing much more rapidly.

Ezzelino asked how many spells I was expecting over 20,40,80 years.... well the oldest character I had was about 70ish years past gauntlet and had Secondary Insight. I find the rush of "yay! 5 xp worth of benefit immediately" much more gratifying than "ooh, I've got 1 extra xp in three different forms, over the long term that will stack up nicely".

@thompsja

I do think Flawless Magic is a very strong virtue. Every spell has reduced botch dice, and can be brought down to zero. Spells cast with vis, even ritual spells, if relaxed, "there are no botch dice, even in a non-magic aura or when using vis." Others have commented on combat applications and rego crafting, while noting the limited utility for a researcher.

That's what I meant to say - if relaxed you get all the upsides of a stress die without any botch dice. When I was casting "Posing the Silent Question" on an infernalist in an infernal aura, and I kept rolling 0s, the Bonisagus kept saying "should've mastered that spell!".

[ezzelino]

I still have the impression that lots of folks are mixing up the benefits of spell mastery (which is great, and available to any magus!) with the benefis of getting a discount on it (which is what FM really provides).

But! I think darkwing, and others who have commented before him, makes a very good point. Flawless magic is gratifying, possibly beyond its coldly calculated utility. Mastered immediately - no waiting, yay! Another season ... another perk, because it doubles mastery xp! Combine it with one pick of Mastered spells at character creation and ... uuuhh, ONE HUNDRED xp to spend on mastery?!? In that (and in its simplicity), even though I'm still unsure it's one of the best Hermetic VIrtues, I would agree it's one of the best designed.

[EthanSteele]

Oh yeah, absolutely! Secondary Insight gives you a lot of xp over time, much more than Flawless Mastery will for a lot of characters, but getting to improve 4 things by 1 xp is nowhere near as punchy/impactful feeling as getting to go "yes, +1 level of mastery, I get a weird new thing, hell yeah"

[loke]

@ezzelino

I still have the impression that lots of folks are mixing up the benefits of spell mastery (which is great, and available to any magus!) with the benefis of getting a discount on it (which is what FM really provides).

Maybe, but you are comparing discounts in incompatible currencies. Book learner is +3xp on traits where you often gain 15xp/season. It is quite a lot of xp over time in absolute numbers, but it is only an increase of 20% or a discount of 16.7%.

FM is +5 xp when you invent a spell, which is a discount of 100%. You would otherwise not have had any xp in the mastery in the same season you invented it. If you take a season of practice, it is a discount of 50%. Same if you take 5xp (the maximum) from a story into mastery.

50xp extra in spell mastery is ten seasons. 50xp extra in arts is probably only four, at least early in the game. In other words, you need to multiply the discounts by 2½ before you compare them to bonus xp in arts.

When we make such a point of the benefits of spell mastery, it is because we have to demonstrate that mastery is beneficial for so many spells, the number of actually useful xp is large enough. Because, as you say, if your concept only has one spell which benefits from mastery, you gain more by taking the 50xp from a minor virtue. FM is only valuable when we demonstrate that our concept needs a large number of mastered spells. This will have to be half the argument.

The other half of the argument is still not about discounts. Discounts is when you reduce the price you would otherwise have paid. FM gives you benefits which you would not otherwise have afforded to pay for. Then there is no discount.

[temprobe]

It's not so much for the xp gain, imho. It's mostly that, frankly, without Flawless Magic, nobody in his right mind is going to spend the seasons necessary to spell master them all. And yet, having a spell mastery bonus on every spell is pretty cool. So that's the right strength of the virtue. Letting you do something you otherwise wouldn't ever do.

[darkwing]

It seems we have an answer our OP can understand - Is Flawless Magic really so good? Maybe, maybe not depending on character concept, but it has a lot of satisfied customers - nobody complains about their character who took Flawless Magic.