Is it scrying?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

May a magus do this?

  1. A magus listens to a conversation while invisible
  2. Improves his hearing to listen to a conversation.
  3. Uses night vision (Eyes of the cat) to see a magus
  4. Make species move his way
  5. Read the mind of a mundane to find out about a magus
  6. Read the mind of a mundane associated with a magus (grog/apprentice) to find out about a magus
  7. Read the mind of a mundane associated with a magus to find out about that magus
  8. Read the mind of an animal (a mouse) to learn a magus' secrets.
  9. Read the mind of an animal (a mouse) that you magically control to learn a magus' secrets.
  10. Talk to the door to find out about a magus
  11. Talk to the sanctum door to find out about a magus
  12. Talk to a piece of wood that you animate to find out about a magus
  13. Make a wall invisible to see a magus
  14. Create a wall and then make it invisible to see a magus
  15. Use intellego magic to find out to whom an item belongs
  16. Use an arcane connection to find out who the owner is
  17. examine a spell with InVi
  • What is permissible? I assume there are three categories: Legal, accepted by favorable tribunal, not accepted
  • Which other legal cases of scrying are there?
2

HoH:TL p52
"I will not use magic to scry upon members of the Order of Hermes, nor shall I use it to peer into their affairs." later on it clarifies 'However, any use of magic (not just intellego spells) to spy or aid spying into a magus's legal affairs is considered an offense.'

May a magus do this?
1. A magus listens to a conversation while invisible - depends on the target, if a magi's affairs are discussed then no
2. Improves his hearing to listen to a conversation. - depends on the target, if a magi's affairs are discussed then no
3. Uses night vision (Eyes of the cat) to see a magus - iffy, what is the magi up to? If he is trying to be private and do something secret then no
4. Make species move his way - no reason why not
5. Read the mind of a mundane to find out about a magus - no, as intruding into his affairs
6. Read the mind of a mundane associated with a magus (grog/apprentice) to find out about a magus - no, as intruding into his affairs
7. Read the mind of a mundane associated with a magus to find out about that magus - no, as intruding into his affairs
8. Read the mind of an animal (a mouse) to learn a magus' secrets. - no, as intruding into his affairs
9. Read the mind of an animal (a mouse) that you magically control to learn a magus' secrets. - no, as intruding into his affairs
10. Talk to the door to find out about a magus - no, as intruding into his affairs
11. Talk to the sanctum door to find out about a magus - no, as intruding into his affairs
12. Talk to a piece of wood that you animate to find out about a magus - no, as intruding into his affairs
13. Make a wall invisible to see a magus - no, as intruding into his affairs
14. Create a wall and then make it invisible to see a magus - might be intruding if he believed it was a real wall and was up to something behind it
15. Use intellego magic to find out to whom an item belongs - depends on the item, somethings are innocuous enough that his affaris aren't revealed, others are intimitate enough to be intrusive by their very nature finding out it belongs to the magi. If the item was involved in a crime against the code ie. book of demonic summonings then you could argue for forfeit immunity.
16. Use an arcane connection to find out who the owner is - same as above, what exactly is the item? Hair, I don't see the problem, other things might be more sensitive
17. examine a spell with InVi - there I think it depends where you are, or what the spell was. Within your own covenant go ahead, in another covenant then you could get in trouble, on a merchant in a city who appears to be mind controlled then could be dodgy

Most cases of scrying are likely never to be discovered so would never get you in trouble, but if you learn a piece of private information about another magi through your normal magics (not scrying on him) then you've crossed the line. That at least is how I understand each case.

3

I agree with all of thrakath's points. The Code is very strict about scrying.

There are many cases where it is possible to violate the anti-scrying clause of the Code by accident. For example, I find a mysterious item, use Intellego magic to find out to whom it belongs, and it turns out it belongs to a magus. :blush: That would still be a violation of the Code -- the fact that it was an accident doesn't make it legal. However the penalty for such a case would take into account the accidental nature of the offense, and would be light.

4

We'll assume you're talking about the target of the scrying being another mage?

The problem is that "legal affairs" are not well defined. But it seems that "any affair that is not illegal" is a good starting point. Any affair. Which means pretty much anything, from lab activities to dining habits to whether they sleep with a teddy bear - anything, no matter how trivial or "unimportant" - that's not up to the scryer to determine, nor does anything but "legality" of that affair come in to play. It's simply just not allowed.

Actually, I'd say the very act is a breech, regardless of what's overheard. If the mage is commenting on the weather or what they had for lunch, or a new dirty limerick or a cloud that looked like a puppy, that's their affair, no one else's.

The main exception is to use Intellego to attend a Council to which you have been invited - and doing so openly. Then it's also your affair, and no breech exists.

? - except that it's using magic to scry upon another member of the Order.

Technically, illegal - but as T says, there are exceptions and mitigating circumstances. An unexplained spell in your covenant is not perfectly "legal" - not necessarily "illegal", but (depending on the details) a Tribunal may rule that the act is perfectly justified.

For the Order, "scrying" doesn't just mean "using a crystal ball" - it's any and every magical intelligence gathering tactic.

The question to ask is not "Is this magical scrying?... well, then is this magical scrying?...", the question to ask is "Did magic help get this information?" If "Yes", then it's illegal, and the more it helped the stronger the case.

Thus, all these are breaches:
o Flying a mundane outside a tower window
o Using ReCo to teleport mundanes great distances to do "mundane" spying
o Putting a guard asleep momentarily to sneak a mundane in.
o Using a trivial CrIm to create a noise to distract a guard while a mundane sneaks in.
o MuIm to disguise a mundane to get in to do the spying.
o Any sort of Intellego to determine what mundane disguise or ruse would work best.
o Casting "Cloak of Duck's Feathers" on a mundane, so they'll stay dry and warm while spying (and so can do it longer).
o A mage sneaking in mundane, listening mundanely, and then using any magic to escape or hide evidence of their presence.
These all use magic to facilitate the act of intelligence gathering - scrying, by any other word. Illegal by the Code.

Unless the spying is 100% magic free, a case might be supportable, and a judgement rendered against the scryer. Not necessarily, but a distinct possibility.

5

99.9% of the time nobody but you will be aware that you just violated the code, though, so that is not a big thing. One of the things about the code is that if nobody accuses you, you are in the clear. :slight_smile: These violations would be a really common issue, I would say, and it is not like you entered a hostile aegis invisible and mind read all the dudes int he covenant, just before listening to a mage from the shadows and revising his sancta to find everything about his current investigation.

Cheers,
Xavi

6

Totally agree.

Almost everything listed above is technically scrying, by my interpretation anyway. However, in the overwhelming majority of cases there probably wouldnt be a case to respond to. I am of the opinion that it is incumbent on the offended party to bring about the charge and for that they would need to be actually offended by the act.

So... any form of magical detection to free a lost magus from a magical prison is gonna be okay. Most petty spying is going to go unnoticed. If and when charges are brought I would imagine they had fairly trivial fines in reaction to fairly trivial offenses. Scrying by mistake is unlikely to be prosecuted unless there is an extant fued between the two parties.

However, systematically scrying on someone, or scrying for genuine intelligence to the detriment of the individual is a very serious matter indeed. I would fully expect a number of WIzWars to be declared long before anything was heard at tribunal. Especially in cases where a magus is scrying on fellows just for the hell of it... that kind of thing really gets people's backs up and blatantly defies the sense of community and cohesion of the order. I believe it is only genuinely intrusive scrying that the order cares about - but that it cares about that a very great deal.

7

Well, everyone seems to agree that nearly everything is scrying under RAW:

  • Is this a weakness of the RAW?
  • Is intellego useless (most intellego spells are scrying and scrying can be done without intellego)?
8

Yes, Intellego is worse than useless, because it's a trap. I don't even know why it was included in the game. There are only 4 Techniques that any mage can legally use in their lifetime. :unamused:

9

Scrying on Kings, faeries, dragons, spirits and just about anyhthing else is just fine. It is only when applied to other members ofthe order that it is criminal. Scrying on or about a hermetic magus is the only clause here.

10

It is also only getting caught and prosecuted (and convicted) for scrying that is problematic.

So, if you can shroud your magics, have high penetration, and are prepared to brazen out any investigation, then intellego is useful to scry on magi. Although, obviously it is risky.

Also, you can use intellego to scry on magi who do not care that you are scrying on them, with little risk of prosecution. For example, using intellego to locate your lost sodales, so that you can go rescue him, is unlikely to result in a prosecution.

Scrying on magi who have been marched is also entirely permissible and useful.

Finally, if you scry on a magus to, say, successfully gather evidence that he is an infernalist, then you can be fairly confident that you are unlikely to get more than a small fine for the scrying. Of course, that is context dependent, and scrying on a magus only to discover that he is not an infernalist is obviously going to cause you problems.

11

Yes. In fact you might be amused by an anecdote from my Palatini saga.

I was walking down the highway, alone, past a place where I thought highwaymen might be waiting to ambush travelers. So I cast Veil of Invisibility and went along my way. Then I stumbled across another magus coming down the road the other way. This is when I discovered a slight lack of planning on my part: I knew the PeIm spell to make myself invisible, but not Restoration of the Lost Image or similar to make myself visible again. :blush: And I thought -- "oh crap, I am violating the Code! What am I gonna do?"

Quickly I decided that it is easier to explain this incident as an honest mistake if I immediately addressed the magus. So I yelled out, "Hello there, I am an invisible wizard from the Order of Hermes and my name is such-and-such. Would you by any chance be a member of the Order of Hermes as well, and can you help make me visible?"

Turns out the other guy could not make me visible either so we had an amiable but rather awkward conversation. Then I sang a merry song so he could hear my voice recede off into the distance and we went along our way. I thought that was the end of it, but wouldn't you know it, two years later at the Tribunal I find this guy bringing a complaint! So once again I decide honesty is the best policy (and if you know this magus, that is quite a departure from his usual attitude) and take the stand and explain the whole thing. The fact that I have a Speak Latin skill of only 4 makes me look like a complete bumpkin (this is the Roman Tribunal) and I get to tell the whole Tribunal that yes, I learned a spell to make myself invisible but I never learned one to make me visible again. There were some more embarassing questions that made me look and feel like a foolish apprentice, and then the Quaesitor asked my accuser if he wanted to proceed with the charges. And my accuser "graciously" said no, written censure from the Tribunal would be enough, and bam! it went down in the official Tribunal record books that I had got a formal bawling-out in front of everyone. They didn't fine me so much as one point of vis -- but somehow I picked up this Hermetic reputation as a "bumbling rustic," level 1, and I can't seem to get rid of it ...

Now, I think a lot of PC magi out there probably know how to turn invisible, but not how to turn visible again. So let that be a lesson to you all.

I still think I did the right thing because if I had tried to slip past unobserved and the other magus had somehow found me out, I would have been in major trouble.

12

Whether it's a weakness depends on your Saga. How often do magi get into disputes with one another? In my current Saga you can go through 5 or 10 stories without encountering another magus. So my magus figures the risk of accidental breach is low, and usually doesn't think about it. The benefits of using Intellego can be huge -- my new magus just learned how cool it is to find vis using spontaneous Intellgo Vim. :smiley:

I think one part of the Peripheral Code that helps make this really playable is the idea of forfeit immunity -- if someone is breaking the Code, then he's not protected by it. So for example if you have good reason to suspect a magus is stealing your vis, and you scry on him while he's stealing your vis, it's legal. BUT, if you're wrong, or you scry at the wrong time, and you get caught scrying while he is going about his honest business (which is all his and none of yours), then you're in trouble.

The other thing that makes this really playable is that it's so hard to get caught while scrying. :wink: So Intellego spells are for magi who don't mind living a little dangerously, IMO. Just as a warning, I once played a magus who had been scried on before, and he enchanted his Talisman with a continuous Invisible Eye Revealed. So it's hard to get caught, but not impossible.

13

Andrew, maybe you would be interested to look at the level 1, 2 and 3 (can't recall which ones they were) PeVi guidelines (RDT: Pers, Mom, Ind). You might find something that even a rustic can spont without fatigue to avoid future problems like those :wink: hint hint

Cheers,
Xavi

14

It's "General" - cancels effects less than {spell level + 10 + stress die}. So with a basic Level 20 VoI, if you can spont a PeVi 5, you get it better than half the time.

But that's something a rustic bumpkin wouldn't know. 8)

15

Well, that explains why all the magi were laughing. :blush: To be fair, no one else in my gaming group thought of it either.

You have to admit, it does make a better story the way it happened. I could have easily sponted this, though:

Sudden Appearance of the Bumbling Rustic (PeVi 5)

R: Personal, D: Momentary, T: Individual

Dispel an invisibility effect on yourself as long as its Level is 25 or less.

(Base 5, "dispel effects of a specific type with a level less than the level +4 magnitudes of this spell")

EDIT: Now if only my current, Bjornaer magus had a handy trick for changing out of heartbeast form... :stuck_out_tongue:

16

Only level 3 if you want to dispel a PeVi15 effect :wink: Most mages can spont that even without fatigue in a non negative aura.

Yep, that explains a lot of things indeed :laughing: It looks like it was a memorable scene

One of our munchkins (Laura, currently playing Severin) developed an "inferno" attack using grogs and multicasts of this spell:

Create LARGE mundane bonfires (+10 damage) in a forest clearing. Then you MuIg(Te) them into clay pieces of Moon duration. Make your grogs throw them at the enemy and then you multicast this spell at the clay tablets for a nice local inferno that bypasses magic resistance. Great against creatures that are dangerous because of numbers, not individual power.

Time consuming, but quite spectacular results. Make sure you do not have any of those with you when the moon turns :laughing:

Cheers,
Xavi

17

No, and only if you think that magic can only be used for hostile purposes, and that the only possible target can be other magi.

18

I don't mean to point out the obvious here, but casting nearly any spell of any Technique on a magus could be a violation of the Code. It's hard to come up with an example of a Creo Corpus spell that would violate the Code, but I'm sure that given time I could think of one. Intellego just makes accidental violation of the Code easier. You can always cast your spells forcelessly to lessen the likelihood of accidental Penetration.

19

Then you instantly discern that they have magic resistance, which reveals them to be (most likely) magi. Still scrying.
I could turn you purple. That's not a violation of the code. Just annoying.
I could mind control you, as long as I do not deprive you of magical power, I see no technical violation.

20

I CrCo a corpse on your head! Except, perhaps without so much vehemence :slight_smile: