I can see that working better in live-action, where game time is real time, and much of the table-top downtime becomes uptime. In practice, it sounds like another flaw neglected.
At the point when Pagan has stopped generating stories it should have already resulted in a significant negative reputation. People will be spreading rumors behind your back of unholy alliances of the Lady Bathory variety, and people may not outwardly react to your displays of "unholiness" simply because they already know that that is who you are. It doesn't mean they approve or trust you.
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I have come in late to this topic, but a couple of things:
- Historically a strong economic reason for Pagan Kings to convert themselves (and country) to Christianity is so merchants from Christian countries will trade with them (fairly). Different prices for those who refuse salvation.
- Pagan Kingdoms who refused to convert could be subject to Crusades raised by their Christian neighbours.
A Pagan in many ways is a threat to civilised Christian way of life.
Your nearest and best friends might be prepared to look the other way while you actively deny Christ, but the rest of your neighbours are unlikely to be so forgiving, for the sake of their souls. At best, ostracisement is probably the order of the day.
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The other great advantage for kings was that upon concerting they could bring the catholic church in as an administrative apparatus which gave them a lot more power and let them levy taxes more efficiently. The adoption of Christianity by Northern and eastern european pagan warlords served them well in justifying their personal rule as well as a big social upheaval from the tribal more "consensual" model rowarda a more stratified centralised state which served them well (as well as shielding them from their Christian neighbours, as said above).
Pagans, especially those who can split the sky asunder as well as making or breaking the harvest, are a threat to this.
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Personally, I think Pagan makes a lot more sense as a Personality Flaw than as a Story Flaw. It's basically written as a Personality Flaw. I would just house-rule it to be a Personality Flaw rather than a Story Flaw.
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I'll just leave this here, ezzelino already said this better than I could.
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I get what ezzelino is saying. We're essentially saying the same thing, but choosing to change things in different directions. I agree Story Flaws should be exogenous in some sense, while Personality Flaws should be endogenous in some sense. That's essentially what defines them, as they're both supposed to get you into trouble. I'm pointing out that Pagan is written as being endogenous. My choice would be not to change the Flaw but to change its category. ezzelino's choice is to change the Flaw to be endogenous. So we're both saying it should be read differently to be a Story Flaw. I'm just saying I'd rather recategorize it than change how it reads, while ezzelino is stating a preference for changing how it reads rather than recategorizing it.
Come to think of it, Indiscreet and Fury should probably be a Personality Flaws, too. I suspect they're categorized as Story Flaws because, unlike Personality Flaws, they have a die-roll mechanic that forces things upon you. But Pagan has no such die-roll mechanic.
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If you are in an area where kings are deciding between Christianity and being pagan, then the Pagan story flaw should not be available on an individual (character) basis, because it is too socially accepted in the area.
That'¨s even part of the flaw description
(This is not a Flaw in areas of Mythic Europe
with substantial pagan populations, but by 1220 the only
such areas are in parts of the Novgorod Tribunal.)
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Actually, I think that Pagan as it stands reads far more as a Story Flaw (Stories come looking for you) rather than as a Major Personality Flaw (you are so obsessed about it that you go looking for Stories). Let's look at the text from RoP:D, the Revised version, p.93 - in case there are multiple versions floating around - emphasis mine:
PAGAN
Major, Supernatural, Story
You do not follow the teachings of the Church, and have never been baptized. This tends to upset those in authority in Mythic Europe and frighten common people who learn of it. You do not observe Christian holidays, and you try to avoid churchmen and the Dominion. For whatever reason, you cannot pretend to go along with society — you might suffer grave supernatural consequences if you take Communion or appear to worship Christ. You may begin with either Magic or Faerie Lore, depending on the specifics of your faith.
So, according to this description, it seems to me that Stories come looking for the pagan character - Stories that the character would much rather avoid but "for whatever reason ... cannot" - and not the other way round.
If you want to play Paganism as a Major Personality Flaw, there's always Pious, which is not specific to a given religion:
PIOUS
Major or Minor, Personality
You are a fervent follower of your religion. You avoid the things it prohibits, and enthusiastically do the things it commands.
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Read it again! What is the main thing that is upsetting people? "You do not follow the teachings of the Church." "You cannot pretend." This is all about your actions and behaviors. That's what "tends to upset." The way you act and behave causes trouble. That's nearly exactly what is stated for Personality Flaws. The only non-action/behavior thing is if someone tells them you're not baptized, which isn't really any different than someone telling others that your Avaricious or similar.
I think that is a fallacy. Remember: a Major Personality Flaw makes a character seek out Stories. He wants those Stories. He wants to challenge the status quo. He does not want to be left in peace. An Avaricious character wants more money. A Leecherous character more sex. A Hateful character more hurt on whomever he hates.
With a Story Flaw, on the other hand, the character does not want those Stories. He does not want to change the status quo. He would rather be left in peace, and if the Storyguide does not "activate from the outside" the Flaw, no Story happens. A character with Difficult Minions would rather they caused less trouble for him. A Heir would rather have less interference with his otherwise assured succession. A character with a True Love or Dependent NPC would rather have less trouble seek that NPC out.
If you are a Pagan according to the description of the Flaw, do the Stories seek you out, or do you seek them out? From the description, it seems very clear that they seek you out, while you'd rather be left in peace. Sure, they seek you out for what you are - which in turn conditions how you behave. But if at all possible, you'd be a Pagan with your beliefs and behaviours and no Stories whatsoever.
The same holds if you have a True Love or a Dependent. You could argue that it is your actions and behaviours that drag you into Stories - if you couldn't care less about said NPC, and just said "Whatever!", no Stories for you - but you do not seek those Stories out. You are compelled to react to them.
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I buy this argument better, but you're now really flipping on endogenous v. exogenous. Notice that it doesn't say anything about these people seeking you out. Everything it talks about is them reacting to you, and nearly everything they're reacting to is your actions. That basically matches up perfectly with things like Lecherous, where you're getting all these people reacting to your actions. The Pagan Flaw is unquestionably written as endogenous.
Now, if you want to flip and say endogenous v. exogenous is not the determining factor, but seeking out stories versus having unsought stories come your way, that is something else. That would make more sense of Fury. We still have the problem with Indiscreet, because there you want to go tell people stuff; it's much like Meddler. But how does this seeking out stories work for Pious (for most people it would be avoiding; clearly people like crusaders would be different), Optimistic (if everything's going to work out great, then you have no need to go out to try to make it great - this is basically antithetical to wanting to challenge the status quo), and maybe some more? But, yes, if we ignore endogenous v. exogenous, then I would place Pagan as Story Flaw.
It is also worth pointing out that this contrasts with the way paganism (as we now refer t it) was actually practiced. If a pagan went into a new land they would follow the gods of that land- which would mean praising the Christain God in Christian lands, just with no loyalty or exclusivity. Modern paganism is quite different, in part because modern pagans are raised in lands where atheism is considered an option, and people clearly do not suffer from it, a least in supernatural terms. Rule one of paleo-paganism was don't tick off the gods, and that meant any gods, including the Christian ones. Early Christians were persecuted not for worshiping God/Jesus but for not sacrificing to the established gods (which was considered to be putting the community at risk of retribution). It was Christian apostates who "returned" to paganism which expressed the attitude of actual hostility towards the Christian faith and deity.
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Not really. I always meant the distinction endogenous vs. exogenous to be about whether the will, the choice to have the Story or not comes from the character vs. from some outside agency. I never meant the distinction to be about some "defining" trait of the character vs. one of the outside world.
If you are Lecherous, you will actively seek out opportunities (i.e. Stories) to engage in your leechery. Those stories are (mostly) not generated by former lovers, cuckholded spouses, angry fathers and unexpected children seeking you out. Being plagued by this sort of stuff from one's rakish past would be a (pretty awesome, I think) Story Flaw.
Meddler (Major) is quite different from Indiscreet.
If you are Indiscreet, you do not "want to go tell people stuff". You are just unable to keep secrets, but you are not constantly plotting about spreading them far and wide. If you are given a free season and asked "Ok, what do you plan to do?" you do not answer (or think) "Hey, I'll spend it spreading indiscretions! How big a scandal can I create, I wonder?", but more likely something like "I guess I'll spend it learning how to cook from Alice, if she's finally forgiven me for that thing I wish I had not said..."
If you are Meddler (Major), on the other hand, you are constantly obsessing about the affairs of other people. If you are given a free season and asked "Ok, what do you plan to do?" you probably answer (or at least think) "Oh, that's great, I can help Alice break up with Bob and get together with Carl who's a much better match for her. And of course, that means Bob will have more free time to help Daisy with her little siblings - those brats really need to be taught proper behaviour, and in particular to stop playing jokes on Esther - poor soul, Father Frances is so worried about her ..."
Pious (Major) characters are those who - even when not joining crusades - go on pilgrimages, help build orphanages/chapels/etc., spread the word of the Lord, assist good members of their community reform their sinful ways, etc.
An Optimistic (Major) character is someone who's constantly hatching improbable schemes. Many modern serial startup founders are like that - they are not into it for the money, but because they (think they) can change the world one way and another.
But yes, I agree there are a few Personality Flaws are not that good as Majors. Wrathful would probably be the best example, unless one reads it as something like "Hatred vs. the multitudes who have wronged you one way or another", or maybe as "There's lots of stuff in the world that makes you angry, and you are Driven to fight it all". Otherwise, I can't quite differentiate it from a slightly more cerebral version of Fury, which is rightfully a Story Flaw.
All the descriptions are superficial, and it is left to the troupe to turn them into stories. The words «story flaw» is part of the description, and is very clear instruction on a troupe to read the rest of the description in such a way that they can make stories.
It is a little similar to visions and predictive stigmata, which are easily read to just be a boon when the players need a serious clue. The fact that they are story flaws mean that SG should use them to pull the character into a new plot.
A pagan personality flaw would make equal sense. We could have both.
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No, they generally don't seek out stories, or want stories. It depends on the flaw,
A Major Personality Flaw often makes the character sometimes act in a way that causes them problems. Problems which in turn create stories.
A character with the Major flaw of Wrathful, for example, can get raging over small things. This can scare off underlings, make business partners think twice about having anything to do with the character, and can be outright dangerous if is their overlord they are raging at.
But the character won't be looking for stories, or trying to cause trouble. They will just act in a way that, depending on circumstances, can make trouble and stories come looking for them.
The end result is of course the same - the Major Personality flaw gets them entangled in stories due to something internal. to the character, but they will typically not be looking for that to happen. It just happens.
Some Personality flaws, like Driven or Avaricious, do make the character act on purpose in ways that will with high probability get them into stories, but for many of the personality flaws the character doesn't mean to create problems - they just do.
That would be curse of Venus.
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Yup. At least I now understand your idea of will. So we disagree a little bit on endogenous v. exogenous, but not a ton.
Well, both being Minor Story Flaws, they are supposed to include boons. After all, all Story Flaws are equally Story Flaws, Minor ones just come with a boon attached. But you're right that they're not supposed to be just boons.
Looks like you and I agree more on Personality Flaws.
Indeed. The equality of story flaws depends entirely on the SG's ability to spin equal stories and not at all on their description.
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