Items creating items

This has probably been brought up before, but my search in the books, and on the forums didn't find anything. How is the finesse roll handled for enchanted items creating items?
Example :- A chest, which when opened, casts a moon duration varient of Silvery Scales of the Knight (a warm welcome back to a spell I missed :smiley: ), creating a suit of full chain inside of it. Nice addition for the armoury, but how is the finesse roll handled?

  1. The mage rolls once after finishing the item, all armour created uses that roll.
  2. Roll each time used, using the mages characteristics.
  3. Roll each time used, using the openers characteristics.
  4. Never roll. No casting total is rolled for enchanted items, and neither is this.

I'm leaning towards the first choice, is there a ruling i've overlooked?

Can't find anything. I would go with the first option as well.


I don't think there is anything out therew.

if you want a qyick rule, build the finesse into the item. Use the penetration guidelines for it. SO a roll of 16 in finesse would require 8 points of lab total.



I'd go with either 1, or 4 (and just have all stuff made generally good, but average)

I'd probably go with that but capped to the caster's finesse score (including any puissance).

Although, it's worth noting, according to the craft magic rules (covenants) the wielder of the item provides the finesse.

So, if you give you knife of "stone as butter" to a grog, the knife may go ahead and perform the stone cutting/shaping craft magic but the grog's finesse with the item is used to determine how "good" the effect is.

That's the method that fits with the canon material.

I (too) think it should be the user of the item who makes the Finesse roll.

In the AM5 rulebook, on page 100, the using enchanted devices chapter says that Targeting rolls are made by the user. And as already pointed out, craft powers in items are determined by the skills of the user.

The user making the finesse roll for such things as the magic box that makes chain armour sounds extremely un-mythic to me.

The items of wonder that create magic stuff are plentifyul in the literature. The characters that find them rarely have any idea on how the item works, let alone having a Finesse-like skill!!! The item is (almost universally) perfectly crafted, so I think it is pretty safe that for not TARGET but for FINESSE rolls, the item can integrate the ability. it is different to throw a PoF than to have an auto-created superior suiot of armour. The former requires you to poke the wand at the tatrget, the later should be auto-build stuff. It would work like that IMS for sure.

YYMV et al.



Do you need finesse for a creo spell, which this sounds like?

Is this a CrTe make a suit of armor or is this a ReTe form a pile of material into armor?

Description of Creo on page 77 of the rulebook:

"Creating an artificial thing by magic requires some skill on the part of the magus, reflected by his Finesse Ability."

That being said, I myself tend to ignore Finesse rolls on Creo magics (Imaginem aside) when running a saga.

The rulebook describes the making of items that require targeting by the user, but that's not to say that one couldn't build self-targeting ("fire and forget") items.

One would have to imbue the device with more magical ability than one that relied upon its wielder's skill to function ... a wand of PoF that found it's own target would need, perhaps, an InMe effect to know what target the wielder intended, and so would take longer/cost more to produce. Once made, though, such an item should be pretty foolproof for anyone to use -- a very powerful item, and perhaps unbalancing.

An excellent point, Mark, but if I recall correctly that is for craft magic which is Rego-centerred. So, the skill the grog would use would be Finesse (+3 ease factor), Craft (Stonemason), Craft (Stonecutter), or, perhaps, Craft (Sculptor).

In the case of Creo magics, I would argue that it is much more dependent on the caster. Take the knife away and give the grog a wand that, with a simple flick, created a dressed block of stone. I suppose it depends on your own view on how magic works in your own world, but to use modern terms, I would rule that the magus builds in the precision with which the final form conforms to expectations.

For related reasons, I like the proposal of adding a Finesse score to enchantments in the same way one adds Penetration (+2 per level) since in an analgous way, I, Kurt, can spend a lot of time designing a machine that "creates" or "crafts" something and add more time designing the machine to do it even better.

Anyway, I entirely agree with you as it relates to Craft Magic, but as it relates to Creo where, to some extent (at least in my world), you are pulling the object out of a sea of Platonic Forms, I would argue that it is much more centered on the magus -- the designer, if you will -- and his or her ability than the user's.



I think the point is, as per the rules as written, you can't give a device inherent Finesse. I think that's more down to items not being able to have "abilities". Penetration gets through as the extra magic enchanted into the device account for the raw magical punch, so don't see that as a Penetration ability.

But, that point aside, I wouldn't have too much of a problem in either a) a magus coming up with a breakthrough that allowed a device to be especially easy to work with (read, provides a base Finesse) OR b) just house rule that Finesse can be added to a device on the same scale as Penetration.

Either way, house rule away...

Agreed. On all counts.


Hi the Baron! I asked the same question about a magical mint which churned out silver coins. Neil Taylor and others made some fantastically helpful comments, but I think this was on the berklist. If it might prove helpful to you the Berklist archives are here, ... rs-magica/
and i believe a search for "Magical Mint" will locate the thread. I would look it up but sadly I am not on my machine and therefore don't have the password to hand. It might be useful though...

cj x

Score one for Automata.

No access to the berklist, so I can't see the magical mint :frowning: (pity, sounds fun)
So, I think i'll go with this.
The mage must have a Finesse score at least as high as the difficulty for the item being created. He must embed the required finesse into the enchanted item, with each 2 points of finesse (or part of) increasing the lab total by 1. No roll is required when the item is used.

The Grateful Grog's Treasured Chest
Upon opening, creates a suit of full chain for the opener
Base 5, +1 Touch, +3 Moon, +2 very elaborate shape
Modifications +5 finesse, +10 Unlimited activations
Lab Total 50 (note, requires a finesse score of 9 or higher to make)

At SG's discretion, this may reduce the covenant's expenditure, and/or increase grog loyalty.