Items of Quality and enchantment

Hi out there. I was wondering whether or not you can enchant an item of quality with additional enchantments.
Like the sword given in the example of HoH: MC, which gets a +4 attack-bonus when used. Is it possible to enchant it as a lesser or invested item or even attune it to become a talisman?
And if the answer is yes, does the one pawn vim vis used while producing the item of quality counts towards the maximum numbers of vis an item can hold?
I would rule yes for the fist and no for the second question but could not find any RAW.

I too would rule yes and no (respectively).

The one pawn of vim is to make it an item of quality, totally different to opening it for enchantment IMHO.

MY archer magus is desperate to learn the item of quality virtue so he can make himself an 8 foot item-of-quality longbow (he is giant blooded). Very nasty indeed, even before enchantment.

Just for the sake of being contrary, I would rule otherwise, with the pawn used to make the item of quality counting against the vis limit. On the other hand, I'd probably allow opening the item at the same time as it is created.

Then I vote against you. Aha! Didn't see that coming, eh?

The pawn of Vis is used "in the process" as it were. What comes out of that process is a natural (though perfected) item. I always imagined it being something like a score of minor rituals and rites that gently shape and reshape the item until it becomes the ultimate expression of its type. The Vis is merely expended in those rites and rituals.

I agree with Mark in this case. It is easier for me to imagine the vis is expended in these rituals, not in the device itself. Incidentally, I would say that all Items of Quality, by virtue of thier perfected nature would always be suitable for enchantment. In fact, I would argue that any Verditius with the Mystery would include that as part of their manufacturing process unless they were trying to hide it's nature for some reason.

An interesting side effect of that point of view is that we would have an example of a crafting ritual that identifies an item's essential nature and it's perfected form (for lack of a better term) and plots a course from it's starting state to a much more improved version.

-- 1 pawn ritual (or set of rituals) nstead of the 4 pawn minimum
-- "Rego" rituals improving something. Yes, it's a Mystery therefore it can bend some rules AND it is not necessarily "rego" precisely.

Having said all that, let's talk a bit about Reforging. If you rule that the vis is gone and that the device is not, in and of itself, magical. Then a broken item of quality can be reepaired through mundane means and then another season turning it back into an item of quality would be sufficient.

Later,

-K!

Interesting. I hadn't thought about that. There's nothing that says an item can't be "brought back to quality" only that it can only have a single "quality".

Yeah.

But then we have to ask, for example, can a mundane tinker of exceptional skill create a pot with a +3 (or whatever) bonus to all cooking rolls? If they can, then I would allow them to just repair a broken item of quality that they are qualified to work on. If not, then I would say that when the item got broken, it got knocked "out of alignment with it's mytical nature" and would have to be retuned by someone who knew the rituals and new how to apply the pawn of vis.

-K!

I think I'd rule that the item needed to be "brought back to quality" by a magus versed in the appropriate Mystery.

The tinker could repair the pot but couldn't make it anything other than a "repaired pot". The magus could, however, change its essential nature such that it transcended its repaired state.

If that makes sense.

Makes sense. Agreed.

It just occured to me:
If the Item of Quality proceedure is just a rego-ritual that leaves a mundane object alterd but not magically active (Mr does not help against a sword of quality), can any magus use an item of quality for attuning it to become his talisman? And can a Verditus make anitem of quality out of a talisman of someone else?
How would you rule on that? I think I would allow both approaches.

I'd rule that you can't make an existing item an item of quality, making it an IoQ involves actually making it from scratch. Even repairing a broken IoQ needs the original item to have been prefect. Therefore you couldn't make an existing talisman into an IoQ.

You could however make an IoQ and then give it to another magus for him to open and enchant to use as a talisman and this would be a great idea.

I'd say you'd have to make it yourself. If it has been magically processed by another magus, even to make it into an Item of Quality, then it is no longer suitable for use as your talisman.

Why not?

You can enchant a sword made by somebody to turn it into your talisman. Why wouldn't you be able to do the same with an item of quality?

Ubnless you assume that the process of opening a talisman for enchantment *is^turning it into an otem of quality. That would be a cool concept by itself.

Xavi

Because the sword hasn't been worked on at a magical level. The item of quality has.

So what?

Xavi

If a device has been opened or had effects invested by someone else, it is unsuitable for use as your talisman. I read that as extending to related magical operations not covered in the core rule book such as making something into an item of quality, a wondrous item, a story charm or an awakened device. To create a talisman, you need to start with either a purely mundane item or an item that has been altered by your own magic alone -- though mere Rego craft magic is probably fine as it is equivalent to the work of a mundane craftsman.

Not this case. the devise has NOT been opened

Neither the case, the item has not been invested by anyone.

Well, a nice HR, but still a HR :slight_smile: By the letter of the rule, you can use such an item as your talisman without problems. In fact I would expect most magi to acquire those items exactly for this purpose. YMMV.

Items of high quality prepared to become talismans sound exactly like what magi might be using all around the place to me.

Cheers,

Xavi