Journey to Waddenzee (summer 1240)

Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Light of Andorra
41

"I don't think it was an unwarranted presumption. And regardless, stealing a magical item from another magus is depriving him of his magical power, which is a violation of the Code as well. Now, if Vulcanus never reports it stolen, then there is no issue. But if he does, I will have to report that I was aware of your, and Antoine's, intentions, and strongly urged you to not go through with this.

As for whatever you and Vulcanus may have done in the past, I can't comment as I was unaware, but I am becoming more concerned with the happenings at this covenant.

In regards to Fleur, yes you are correct, she said Durenmar; it's been a long day. As for Vulcanus hiding his apprentice, he can of course do that. But if he does so, Fleur will have the right to go to his tribunal's senior quaesitor, at which point they will likely find him to be in violation of the mandate in the Code that states, 'I concede the right of Bonisagus to take from me any apprentice he may find helpful in his studies.' Hiding an apprentice after a Bonisagus has officially claimed one's apprentice would violate this tenet quite clearly."

42

Therein lies my issue. The exact wording specifies it. "I concede to Bonisagus the right to take my apprentice [size=125]if[/size] he should find my apprentice vauable to him in his studies"
That's a pretty big if. I would go so far as to say a Bonisagus does not have the right to take someone's apprentice that has no value to their study. And that is pretty much what Fleur has fat out stated to me. Her intent is ransom and revenge, not insight or study. This cannot possibly be lawful in intent or letter of the Oath.
And what's the penalty for hiding an apprentice anyway? certainly noy a high crime. what, a fine? a rook maybe?
As for the sword, it cannot possibly be considered depriving him of anything if one takes something that isn't his to begin with. Not saying that justifies anything, but this is indeed part of the traditions and practices of the cult. I did not volunteer as a participant when he stole the sword from us. But he knows full well what to expect next. It is in their freaking mystery script fer cryin' out loud!
And if you are so concerned with the state of affairs here, why don't you do something about it? I offered you a seat as a Pontifex. You turned me down. You had the opportunity to take positive control, and you turned it down. Why is that?
Look, I understand your concerns and worries. This is a rock and a hard place. I do respect the law, but when law conflicts with morality, well...
What would you have me do?
And again, do not assume I am doing anything I have not stated. I said I was going to help someone steal a sword, not that I was going to steal it myself. And it isn't thievery. It is retrieving property that was stolen from us. All according to a traditional Flambeau game.
And I plan to warn someone. What is illegal about that?
I mean, Jesus Christ! I cannot abide by the kidnapping of an innocent child! This has nothing to do with taking an apprentice.
And it is not only the wrath of Vulcanus she needs be worries about. The Knights of Seneca are over a dozen strong, stalwart and strong Flambeau magi. I have the influence to calm or invoke them. She really should not do this. But I do not want to be the one that issues threats or has to hurt her. I am not liking any of this! And I am just as pissed at Vulcanus for instigating this whole thing! But loyalty means nothing if you reserve it only for those you like.

43

Not to interfere too much, but Solomon would likely be familiar with these cases:

So there is ample case law to support the proposition that retrieving property that is owed/stolen is not depriving a magus of magical power. If indeed Vulcanis stole the sword from Andorra, I believe this precedent says that if Antoine can successfully retrieve it, he will not be in violation of the Code.

I suppose there's an argument based on the first case that it might be necessary to ask for the item back first, and based on the second case there's an argument that it might be necessary for a maga to get the tribunal to rule that an item was stolen and order it returned before stealing it back. But I think that's debatable. (I'd argue that violating the tribunal order is what caused Errantus to have to pay a fine of twelve pawns of vis, but that the fact that the staff was stolen is what made it legal for Bartholamew to retrieve it.) What these two cases seem to say to me is that getting back what was owed to you/what was originally yours is not depriving a magus of magical power since the magus wasn't supposed to have that power in the first place.

FWIW, I'm assuming that Lucas has spent some time in the library and uncovered this precedent.

44

Also FWIW Fleur has already told Carmen that she does need the apprentice for her research for a year, and I believe she mentioned that as part of her motivation to Solomon.

As to Duerenmar, the way I see it there are a few possibilities:

  1. They do not keep records of apprentices- I would expect they would because of how things are written in the Rhine tribunal book, plus the fact it would be very convenient to Bonisagus magi who run the covenant to have a list.
  2. They have a list but Vulcanus' sons are not on it, or on it as forge companions rather than apprentices (if they are apprentice blacksmiths rather than apprentice magus)
  3. They have a list and they are on it.

Marko you seem to have a plot idea simmering, so could you indicate which of these is correct or if I may decide for myself?

45

Solomon raises his hand in mock surrender, “Carmen, look, I have no interest in arguing with you. My point was to simply warn you that your actions may have consequences. And I can guarantee that the defense of, ‘I didn’t steal it, I just helped someone steal it,’ is not going work with an investigating Quaesitor.

As for the sword itself, I was never under the impression that the sword was the covenant’s to begin with. I always believed the sword was Vulcanus’ by right of his heritage, and thus he had the right to take it when he left. Now, if we have some way to prove that the sword was the property of the covenant when he left, then we would have a legal means to challenge him. But, as you said, this is a Valdarian thing, and if Vulcanus is at all honorable, he’ll recognize that and not complicate matters.

As to the matter of Fleur, I don’t like her any more than you, and likely a lot less. But the burden to prove that the apprentice will be valuable to her is not on her until after she has taken the apprentice and appears to be misusing or mistreating him. She seemed to have mentioned something to me about needing the apprentice for a year, but in my opinion that violates the Code’s intent, and would at a minimum lead to censure from her own House.

In regards to what punishment Vulcanus would receive for hiding his apprentice, I would say it would start with the loss of that apprentice to Fleur, as well as some means of compensation for the seasons of work she would have lost while not having that apprentice.

Finally, I never refused your offer as a Pontifex, we were dealing with more pressing matters at the time. I had expected you to extend the offer again once we returned to the covenant, but you hadn’t. I figured you must have changed your mind.

As for what to do when the law contradicts morality, the Code has a provision for that. One that your House founder ensured was included.”

46

((A lot of this is roleplaying and spontaneous inspiration. Carmen is offended that Fleur did not accept her offer, and has convinced herself that Fleur is planning to abduct and abuse an innocent child. That may not be true, but that is what she thinks. And said child is the son of a fellow Flambeau magus and Knight of Seneca. So it seems natural that she would be very concerned.
As for what I am planning, I am imagining that Wadanzee is an outlaw sort of covenant with contempt for filing records and that they are a concern that the Rhine has yet to be able to deal with.
My thinking on it anyway.))
As for Solomon's last comment...
:exclamation: I do not want to take things that far. Fleur concerns me, but I have no dire animosity towards her and I think her research may be quite valueable.
Hmmmm...
What if I challenged her to Certamen?

47

The clerk looks very frazzled "Hmm, lets see, Vulcanus, he's at oh dear Waddenzee... I don't see a filing for an apprentice, but, it's Waddenzee, so who knows."
Fleur thinks on this a moment "Maybe this is a similar waste, but could you check and see if he has registered any forge companions."
"He's Flambeau, why would he register Forge Companions, besides, we don't even request that information."
"just trying to eliminate some possibilities, he's a special kind of flambeaux."
"No, no forge companions either."
"Is there anyone I could talk to who is more familiar with the situation, preferably a Bonisagus or Guernicus? If nobody else Could you direct me to Ender Wiggans?"

48

I just thought of another way to go about this. Mind you, looking in GotF, I could find nothing about filing apprentices and such. And the concept doesn't fit with my view of the middle ages. And even so, Wadanzee seems like a scofflaw covenant that would ignore such custom in favor of secrecy.
However (there's that word again), Wadanzee is (in)famous and certainly there are those keeping eyes on them.
You are approached by one Cornelius of Bonisagus, visiting on official business from Zealand Covenant.
[color=brown]I know Vulcanus. Annoying crackpot. He briefly associated with my friend Ulric, Hermetic name Constantius. Ulric was helping another friend, Valgravian Jerbiton, to set up the Covenant of Bellaquin in a new location. Vulcanus was helping them, there was some sort of falling out, and Vulcanus returned to Wadanzee.
I don't talk to Ulric much any more. We have grown apart.
Anyway, my informants have told me he has two apprentices, started them under age.
I am working on an investigation of Wadanzee, for I suspect them of engaging in piracy. In Normandy, this is lawfull. Disgustingly, they have rules it lawful. But here in the Rhine, such activity is unlawful and unconscionable.
And I suspect Vulcanus is in the middle of it. He came from Wadanzee originally, moved to Provence for a few years, then returned after he killed his rival in a Wizard War and took over his tower.
What is the nature of your interest? I am here seeking the Prima's attention on the matter and hope to start an official investigation soon.

49

"I am needing an apprentice for a year for my research, and Vulcanus has done some things to myself and my friends such that I thought to claim his for my needs to tweak his nose at the same time, the two apprentices are apparently his sons. There names are Modi and Magni, I was not certain if they were Gifted or apprentice blacksmiths. If they are Gifted and sons of a member of the order this is of even more interest to my research, which includes questions of heredity. Given the, um, hostile nature of Waddenzee, I was hoping I might file a notice of claim on an apprentice here and send a redcap to demand he turn the child over."

50

Cornelius stares with a stunned expression.
[color=brown]I...
I don't know how to respond to that...

51

"Perhaps we should consult with a Guernicus, but I don't know of any requirement that the claim be made in person."

52

Cornelius glares and flares his nostrils.
[color=brown]Madam Fleur, I am the most senior Quaesitor present. You are a boor and have the manners and morals of a Tytalus magus. As a Traditionalist, I am not one to deny your intended application of your rights. But as a Bonisagus of Bonisagus, I am appalled that you would trivialize that right to "tweak a nose".
Expect no help from me. And (speaking louder) [size=90]Those who Court my Favor Should Likewise Ignore You.[/size].
Good day Madam.
He turns his back to you and goes about his business.

53

I as a player had no idea that Cornelius of Bonsiagus was a Guernicus, he was never identified as such. Was this meant to be a social trap to undermine my character or is this a lack of narrative consistency? Ender Wiggans had already been defined as the foremost Guerniucus for the tribunal, so this is a bit of a sudden switch on a point I had specifically prepared for.

54

Not a Gurnicus. A Quaesitor. And yes it was inconsistency. I totally-totally thought I mentioned he is a Bonisagus Quaesitor, and when I went to quote it, then realized I didn't.
I also have no idea who Ender Wiggins is. Though I have a vague memory. Is he the one that met with Carmen? As for Cornelius, I am setting him up as the most senior present at the current moment, and visiting from a distant location.
I would not mind at all calling a mullagin on this whole exchange and redoing it. I was sort of shocked and dumbfounded by the language you used. It was like I threw you a bone and you bit my hand! I know that is not what you were doing, and likewise rest assured I was not trying to sabotage you. Which is why I want to call a do-over.
Lesson learned: don't be so brash and Tytalus like! And don't tell anyone your motive is to "tweak the nose". Abusing your rights to kidnap for ransom * is* appaling. Let us not fool ourselves about it. If you want to succeed, you need to be less casual about it.

55

Ender Wiggans is the person whom Solomon suggested Fleur deal with as a Quaesitor in the Rhine if she ran into difficulties.

"I am seeking an apprentice to aid in my research, and had heard rumors that Vulcanus had sons who were gifted. Since my research deals heavily with issues of heredity, it would seem quite auspicious to have one of these sons of his as apprentices. From previous reports however I was not certain if Modi and Magni were hermetic apprentices or apprentice blacksmiths, it seems you have confirmed they are hermetic. Given the, um, hostile nature of Waddenzee, I was hoping it might be possible to file some sort of notification of claiming the apprentice here and send a redcap with a message to demand he turn over the child."

56

Chief Wiggum is away on business.
You are approached by one Cornelius of Bonisagus, who is also a Quaesitor, and visiting on official business from Zealand Covenant.
[color=brown]I know Vulcanus. Annoying crackpot. He briefly associated with my friend Ulric, Hermetic name Constantius. Ulric was helping another friend, Valgravian Jerbiton, to set up the Covenant of Bellaquin in a new location. Vulcanus was helping them, there was some sort of falling out, and Vulcanus returned to Wadanzee.
I don't talk to Ulric much any more. We have grown apart.
Anyway, my informants have told me he has two apprentices, started them under age.
I am working on an investigation of Wadanzee, for I suspect them of engaging in piracy. In Normandy, this is lawfull. Disgustingly, they have rules it lawful. But here in the Rhine, such activity is unlawful and unconscionable.
And I suspect Vulcanus is in the middle of it. He came from Wadanzee originally, moved to Provence for a few years, then returned after he killed his rival in a Wizard War and took over his tower.
I am here seeking the Prima's attention on the matter and hope to start an official investigation. You can travel with me. Redcaps are avoiding the place for they claim it is to dangerous. Really, I think is is because they are holding a grudge becauuse they suspect Wadanzee hit one of their ships.

57

According to the Rhine tribunal book, Waddenzee is in the Rhine Tribunal...

"I will accompany you, however before we go let me write a letter explaining where I am going and my intent. Then if some 'accident' befalls us the appropriate actions may be taken."

58

Yes, Wadanzee is in the Rhine. As is Durenmar and Zealand (Herot). However, situated on the cost, there interferance with shipping has affected both Stonehenge and Normandy. They have not touched any Rhine ships and stick by the letter of the law. As a Traditionalist, Cornelius is hard pressed to come up with appropriate charges. Indeed, this and his home political situation have shaken his belief in Traditionalism.

59

"One detail of my quest I have not confided in anyone else. Should Vulcanus decide to resist me in turning over his apprentice, I am willing to simply take on an apprentice for a year of fosterage, if he is willing to go far enough in opposing me to be a potentially marchable violation of the code. I'm fairly certain that if that happens you would be able to leverage such a violation into cracking the covenant, given that Vulcanus has a history of acting against the covenant. In that event I would appreciate some assistance in finding an apprentice to foster."

And this is one part of why she could not agree to Carmen's oath.

60

Cornelius offers Fleur his arm in gentlemanly fashion. [color=brown]Madame Fleur, I will be honored to escort you. I doubt Vulcanus will be able to offer you resistance or hostility. Not if you are with me.
I have a carriage that will take us. There will be the driver, my shield grog, my familiar, myself, then you and yours. I figure it will take two or three days at the most.
Take your time. Write letters and such. Meet me out front a half hour after sundown.