I don't see that a mystagogue is necessary. The virtue is Hermetic and part of a lineage within the house, and also is stated as having been successfully integrated into Hermetic magic at the cost of some power. Whilst its true that all learning magic in Mythic Europe is as much attunement as education, the whole point of Bonisagus' theory of magic was to strip out all the religious paraphenalia and reduce it to the core magic itself. Thus, in game, it's not a contract with cthonic powers but what was learned by studying those with such contracts. People with those contracts will have more and more specific powers, also represented by virtues.
I really do think that the initiation rules are the most over- and mis-used parts of the game. They should, in my opinion, stick to their original remit of allowing people to learn new magic without the penalties of their previous affinities, not for allowing people to learn more of things which are already a part of their magical framework. As is, Hermetic Research is basicly useless because noone can recreate your results without decades of work unless you ignore chunks of Ancient Magic and TM:RE. By placing so much emphasis on the mechanics, I feel that the real cohesion and reason for Mystery cults are underemphasised. It becomes about Cult Lore, rather than on social ties, desires of power and shared knowledge, with all the consequences thereof. Modern football supporters are the best example of a mystery cult I can think of, and they certainly don't do it for magical power. Well, I hope not.
If the Tremere in question represents a religious sect, however debased, then keeping it a secret could easily outweigh concerns for the code. After all, look to what House Verditious did when the secrets of Hermetic Automata became a teachable virtue known to the rest of the order, and they had no justification save pride. The real question to put before Tribunal, however, is at what point does the apprentice cease to be that of the Tremere and become the apprentice of the Bonisagas? I can see magi putting a lot of thought into that before voting at Tribunal.
As mentioned by John Post, curse tablets and lead working were fairly standard and widespread in Roman times. In fact, the evidence seems to suggest that the cursing was standardized so much that it suggests the existence of a cursing profession in the Empire. There are thousands of curse tablets in parts of the Empire that span several thousand miles in distance, and still are very similar.
So I would second the opinion that the leadworker virtue should be found outside house tremere as well. After all it is not the secret of house tremere, but one of the minor virtues that some of them have. No biggie there with it being also in existence elsewhere.
I think the exact wording of this virtue is somewhat ambiguous.
The first part of writing names of ghosts down to use as AC is clear enough.
But the part about including ACs from bodies in kolossoi to fix them with no need to spend a season a vis - si that only for ACs fron dead bodies in order to get ACs to ghosts, or is more general for use with any AC from say living magi???
I know that feeling. The wife encourages me to blow off my puns at rpg sessions. Although sometimes I get as good as I give and will be tempted to re-tell them at home.
But seriously, what are prople's readings of the wording? Of the ACs?
The virtue's description from HoH: TL seems to imply that the effect is inapplicable to humans, but this may be the result of a restatement of the Limit of the Divine which prevents baptismal names from functioning as sympathetic connections.
The Defixiones chapter of Ancient Magic briefly mentions the virtue too, and lists the Cult of Pluto a form of Defixio Lore which allowed Rego Mentem effects which would also (reasonably) point to a necromantic focus.
Ultimately, the virtue seems focused on necromantic applications, but it's not really clear if that's the only way it can be used or not. Personally, I'd allow it to work on the living, provided the other requirements were met.
Threadomancy to the extreme, sorry! But I'm still baffled by the Leadworker virtue from HOH:TL
Help me out here:
The Leadworker can make a Katadesmos - a tablet with a name, og a Kollosoi, a figure-representation. They become active through the name (unique power for the Leadworker) or through a physical AC, like a body part or hair (lile normal AC rules). This is useful for Penetration, see below.
Either can work as an AC to "the restless dead, and to those animals and spirits able to recognize their own names".
2a) That sounds to me like undead & animated corpses (or corpses to be animated later on!).
2b) And to animals, living animals or so it sounds like to me.
2c) And to spirits. The last two need to be able to recognize their own names, so it sounds like no wild animals, only domesticated ones. But definately no living people, so this is a virtue for Necromancers as well as animal- and spirit masters. Although the Animal part seesm less useful. Except perhaps to curse another magus' familiar...although that might be a bad idea.
He can make a Kollosi with a fixed AC without the need to spend time or vis. Now, this text could be misinterpreted to mean that you could take an AC that's already been fixed and do this, but there seems little point to this then, since it's the Fixing that takes time and vis. But otherwise seems like a great thing to able to do, if you're in the habit of wanting ACs, since they're nice for Penetration.
Better Penetration.
4a) A Katadesmos is an AC just because the Leadworker etched the name, cool enough.
4b) The Kollossoi is a symbolic representation, that's in sync with the regular rules. Although does it require the creator do make some Dex+Craft roll as ArM5 says? Or does the Leadworker skip this part?
4c) And finally the Leadworker gets a Penetration multipler of +3 for using "a Killossoi with a sympathetic connection from the body of the target". If that's meant to be the aforementioned Fixed AC (which the Leadworker can create using no time or vis) that's actually worse than the Core rules, since that would give a +4. Or it it additive with the +4, for a whopping +7?!??! The text does say "sympathetic connection" and not "fixed, permanent AC". So is this if you just have a body part, where the AC has run out? Because if you find an AC from a body which is still active, the Leadworker can apparently Fix this in to time and with no vis.
The restless dead include ghosts. If you can find the ghost of an animal, you can use this with it, too, if you like, provided the animal knows its name or you have an AC to the ghost.
I have no problem with using a fixed AC to make a kollossos, but you'd be making the connection weaker, not stronger, in terms of Penetration. To make a kollososs you need an item of the body which is an AC. A fixed AC of the body is, definitively, an AC. So, sure.
But the intent is: you get something "of the body" with an AC to your enemy, and by putting it in a kollosus, you fix that AC. This takes no vis, or study time, and requires no roll.
"Successes are automatic." The representation is about as life-accurate as a gingerbread man, so it doesn't require a roll.
No, it doesn't sum, but it doesn't cost vis or study time, so you can have billion of these if you want. They are weaker, sure...but they are essentially free, so there's a cost-benefit to consider.
The Leadworker fixes the AC by making it a kolloosus. That is, the process of fixing it and the process of making a lead voodoo doll are the same process, you don't do one then the other. It's not "no time", its "no study time". You can make them in about the time it takes to make a little human shape out of a lump of lead, which is really quick with tiny ReTe spells.
You can't revive an expired AC by craftin it into a kollosus.
Responding to a post from 2009 is especially silly, never the less:
Killing would be wasteful and it would make unnecessary complications and enemies. A simple perdo mentem spell would be sufficient to erase the knowledge from the apprentice's mind.
I'd also say horoscope bonus is additive with Kolossoi. Reading what was clarified, it seems Colossoi are discount versions of fixed ACs. And horoscopes add with these, so I'm taking a leap of logic here. Go nuts with adding boni!
For the first time, I play with a "archetype" Tremere player: his character is proud but realistic, loyal, a leader in battle... I really like his character: he incarnates the true Tremere spirit in my opinion.
