Hi,
Sure, they force the spirit... which is the Aspect that the Daimon instantly dissolves. The rules are not vague at all, but quite clear about the invulnerability of the Daimon itself, unless you go to where it actually is.
Nope!
Nope!
Nope nope nope!
Yup!
Or not, since I didn't notice anyone in this thread offer the position you describe.
Anyway,
Ken
Hi Ovarwa!
That's a reasonable reading of the printed rules but is also kind of silly. Forcing a daimon to pop into existence momentarily and then dissolve away laughing isn't really forcing a daimon at all. However, we can disregard daimons entirely in our discussion of True Names if we agree that the phenomena works for other sorts of entities.
Your argument that True Names are no big deal seems to be based around the idea that the Theurgy rules, as printed, basically suck. I don't disagree with you on this. Other magic systems such as Goetia may or may not be better at working with daimons. There's also the possibility of casting magics on the daimon, rather than the aspect, if a magus has a way to enter the Magic Realm.
However, True Names also work on other magic realm entities, such a djinn and powerful ghosts, including those in their Afterlife rather than walking the Earth. One doesn't need Theurgy, just a spell that works at Arcane Connection range. I presume they work on Faeries, although I think a few may disagree. They certainly work on demons and other infernal beings of all levels of power. I believe they even work on divine angels. None of these beings have the niche protection that TMRE assigns to daimons. In almost every case, a True Name facilitates enough penetration to master a being without niche protection. That's a Big Deal, IMO, and warrants a story event requirement to learn the Name, not just a season or two thumbing through Tobin's Spirit Guide.
Hi,
That's not what happens. The daimon does not pop into existence. An Aspect of it pops into existence, which the daimon can dispel at will.
That's not what I wrote, not at all.
I am saying that the 5xp cost is not too cheap, and that RAW work fine.
I have written that Theurgy is generally not worth pursuing from the perspective of optimization. In other threads. Nothing I have written in this thread is predicated on that assumption. I have also not said here or elsewhere that the Theurgy rules suck. For one thing, they do a great job of simulating a world in which magi don't bother with Theurgy.
And finding the Daimon, if it even resides in the portion of the MR that has been entered.
Yes.
provided the magus is designed to be a master of these entities
So, let's build our Spirit Master, 0-10 years post-Gauntlet.
He has big ReVi so ((Aff+Pui)*(Re+Vi)). He'll have some kind of Major or Minor Focus. He doesn't need to be a Theurgist, so we're good. Not surprisingly, this fellow so far is following my advice for AM beginners, because it's good advice that happens to work for this concept. He has Virtue Points to spare. Affinity with Magic Lore is particularly interesting if he wants to learn lots of True Names of Magical Entities!
We'll give him a ReVi Casting Total of 45 generally, and 65 in his Focus. Penetration(Vim) of 4(5) because ok. Seems back of my hand reasonable to me.
For each and every entity he hopes to pwn, he will need to:
a) Know that the entity exists
b) Spend 5xps that would otherwise be spent on the appropriate Lore. This investment can be compared to fixing an AC, but unlike fixing an AC, no one else can do this for you and you need to start with an existing transient AC.
The actual entity is defined or approved (or approved and then modified) by the GM. What is its Might? GM. Powers? GM. Etc.
And it's only one entity. Not a type of entity, such as a generic spirit of anger or volcanoes but exactly one entity. (In some sagas, it is completely appropriate to get different entities depending on the Name by which you summon the Virgin Mary....)
If that entity is slain or destroyed, the investment is lost.
So, we're now ready for pwnage.
We get a final penetration of 80 + die minus the cost of the spell. So this guy isn't about to do much to Michael, but can certainly deal with all sorts of major and minor entities.
Except that these things have agency and associates. Pwn a Might 35 angel or demon? He'll remember. You're now on its bad list, and you'll eventually stop controlling its every action. Also, there's always a bigger fish, and in such cases, it is reasonable for those to be called in. Not all the time, not every time, perhaps never. But if it does happen, it's not a case of the GM screwing the player any more than it is unfair for the GM to have a human prince take umbrage at a PC who abuses one of his vassals.
So, congratulations. You have a potent power, and with that kind of total investment it damned well better be potent. But it is best used judiciously, because it comes with some real drawbacks.
Oh, and did you mention Faerie? Learning a TN for a Faerie might well (RAW) create that Faerie, being the moral equivalent of begging the Faerie Realm to pretty please come and feast on the magus' vitality. 5xps represent a small but excellent beginning, a casting call. Using the TN to cast a spell is the opening act.
Not such a big deal. The magus has spent his career learning to traffic with eldritch entities. He has a repertoire of 10-40 of these to call upon at need. If he needs too much or too often, they will turn on him, misconstruing every command, reaching out to friends and superiors, conspiring behind his back. On the other hand, if he treats them well, offers them gifts, finds out what they want and help him, you get stories of a very different kind.
Not overpowering, totally self-limiting, oozing with flavor. I think it's a great shame to discourage this kind of character design by making it even harder.
Anyway,
Ken
You have an Arcane Connection to it so that's not so hard, assuming you even bother. You could just cast at Arcane range from your own location.
Hi,
And finding the Daimon, if it even resides in the portion of the MR that has been entered.
What spell with an AC will let you traverse an arbitrary number of Boundaries/whatever, if the AC even works at all, since ACs from outside of the MR are wonky within, IIRC?
And the Daimon itself might have utterly different (ie much higher) statistics than its Aspects.
And that, of course, if the True Name is really that of the Daimon itself, as it exists within the MR, as opposed to that of that kind of Aspect. (Which makes sense if a Daimon can have more than one kind of Aspect, and there's no reason why it shouldn't, since otherwise, spells to summon an Aspect break the moment it increases in Might....)
EDIT: Although I have never said that the rules for Theurgy suck, I have said that the rules for the MR suck, and I'll stand by that. Utter rubbish. Anything associated with these rules, including that Daimons live there and can be found, and how ACs work, and what happens to Daimons if found there, are bound to be bad, or worse. So any conversation that starts with your having a problem involving the Magic Realm will involve at least some agreement and sympathy from me, perhaps lots. I'm attempting to justify something in this category, to support my main point, which I stand by, but I'd just as soon ignore the MR as written.
Anyway,
Ken
You don't need to traverse anything, just cast the spell at Arcane range and order your target to do the traversing.
I freely admit that I can't figure out the MR rules in RoP:M but to my understanding boundaries and vestiges do not block ACs once you're inside the Realm. All I can find looking through the rules is a reference to ACs degrading, with the exception of indefinite ones (which True Names are per RoP:I) and being interrupted when one but not both ends of the connection are in the Void.
So make sure you spend your 5xp learning the True Name of MR Loki rather than Aspect Loki. Which is sort of what I was getting at about not just choosing to learn the True Names of anything you know something about.
I wish I hadn't used the word "suck". Overall I like TMRE very much, along with other work of those authors. What I meant to say was that Therugy is written to have such weak game effects as to be nearly useless. I generally like it when books present weaker rather than stronger abilities but Therugy (along with a few other features of TMRE, such as Vulgar Alchemy) goes too far.
The Spell Spirit side of Theurgy has been discussed at length in these forums. If the Daimonic side is interpreted as meaning that it only results in contacting a Daimon, with no assurance that a given Pact will be made without extra cost and with no possibility of coercing the Daimon, then the ability is useless for anything other than throwing away time and vis. If you're worried about nerfing the concept of spirit summoners, that is the problem, not a requirement to make names or other secret information harder and more interesting to obtain.
I couldn't agree more with that.