learning from books

Did I write Level 9, Quality 17? Silly me, I meant Level 17, Quality 9.
Discuss.

:smiling_imp:

Can we just assume that most of the Hermetic texts that get distributed outside their authors' home covenants are written by the best writers (say, the top 3-5%) of the Order?

I mean, unless you're a dirt-poor Spring, why bother buying anything less?

-Albert

That is a reasonable question, and I'll address that as such.

In short, it's like any market - altho' everyone wants "the best", not everyone can afford them, nor can find them when they do want them. And those who don't have "the best" to sell are willing to price their item to make it attractive despite the diff in overall value to the buyer.

For me, there are several assumptions that I think can be safely made about trading texts and "the Order", altho' some Saga-worlds may view things differently. Some of this is from canon, and some just what is "common sense" to me.

  1. There is not a big public list of "All the Order's Texts For Sale" - no Craig's List, no mail-order catalogues, no "Texts Wanted" section of the paper, no web search. There are Tribunals every 7 years where (most? some?) Covenants gather (and trade), and the Redcaps, and your neighbors and anywhere else you can achieve a line of (productive, ahem) communication, and any rumours from those. And there is personally visiting The Great Library at Durenmar (Rhine Tribunal), but that may not be easy to get to, is not cheap, and can be political for access to "the best" texts. But beyond that, it's dark and quiet.

1.1) Some of the more capitalistic Covenants will be production centers for the texts they do have, and will aggressively advertise - but they do not have "everything", nor are they (necessarily) even the best of what they do have for sale.)

  1. Barter, like communication, is not instant or perfect. There is no central "market index" where you can see and compare prices, possibly except through House Mercere, and it seems that if they can make a little profit they will. (See HoH, True Lineages.)

  2. Just as with any market, in the big bellcurve of supply and demand, "the best" are both extremely expensive* and hard to access, and the "good" are much easier to aquire, both re price and availability. The mediocre, indifferent and just plain bad are always available and painless to acquire (sometimes even for mere silver!) - which is their strength.

(* In canon, "the very best", the true paragons of the Arts, are rarely sold - they are given as gifts, or traded, either like for like or for significant favours. Just as average/good Art texts are worth more than mere silver, these are worth more than mere vis.)

  1. For the top end, the "cow and calf" oath is (often? usually? always?) in effect - I'll sell you the prize cow for its milk, but not any calves from the cow. That is, you can have the book, but no copy from your copy will ever be made. Which limits distribution, and even awareness of the source (since you can't sell it, why bother advertise that you have it?)

  2. Also in canon (altho' I have a hard time accepting this one myself), there are big holes in "the best", the "roots and branches" (aka "foundations and pillars") of the Arts, the primers for apprentices and the top-end for specialists. (See Guardians of the Forest.) I understand this was done to keep things openly defined, but imo every SG/Troupe should consider filling those openings themselves for their Saga.
    So - "the best" are available only to the elite, those with the connections, those with the juice, something more than "a pile of vis". The "very good" are still only available to the wealthy, and only found with difficulty. The rest make do with what they can find and afford - which will vary.

So, if your library has no Aquam texts and you simply want "something" for your apprentice to study (or yourself, so you can legally take an apprentice), then you might accept something well below standard, rather than wait and hope and then pay through the nose for "very good". And, later, you'll find something better to replace that, and sell the inferior text to someone like you were, repeating that cycle.

So, imo, no - "the best" are not the only things on the market, even if that's all anyone would want in their dreams. Because on one end, everyone wants "the best", and so only the very wealthy can afford them, and on the other someone is always happy to sell crap, and someone is always willing to buy it for one reason or another. (And, on a meta level, this keeps players hungry, to fill one more slot in their library - and that's a good thing too.) And in between is where most covenants live, even if they're much better off than "dirt poor".

sigh Some days, I want to add an extra field to AM topic listings that tell me what percentage of the posts within that topic have devolved to arguments over semantics. A separate value for % that are arguments over how reasonable a particular character build is would also be handy.

:smiley:

Probably at least as being the single most common category of books yes. But it will still exclude the top notch category, as those will simply be hard to come by. And the "decent", "mediocre" and "barely good enough" books very probably outnumber the good ones in trade if combined.

Yeah, even just a few of these will most likely be enough to make decent books for most skills and a few good books available.

There is word of mouth however, something which was much more effective then than now. It takes time for sure but if you talk around a bit on how you would very much like to purchase a book about X that is easy to learn from but need not be so advanced(ie a low level, high quality), then there probably will be suggestions or offers in the not too far future(unless the covenant is very isolated of course).
So it should usually be possible to find what you want, but time and effort is likely to be needed.

This however is a "market" where the requirements and possibilities will shift supply and demand, meaning that its unlikely to be representative with a bell curve.
My guess would be something rather steep at the quality end and very gently, perhaps even evenly and straightly, sloped towards the poor quality end...
Only the desperate will take on the really bad(but there are always a few desperate around most likely), while there are always those who will look for "bargains" and thereby moving the "barely good enough" around, those too poor or poorly connected or just looking for a quick patching of a hole in their library will keep the mediocres moving... And so on...

Because it gives prestige. Or simply because you like it "-hey look at this book, its just so great you must get it yourself!"...

Not nearly no. But the "good" ones are likely the most sold. Which also agrees with RAW, always a nice when logic and RAW cooincides... :slight_smile:

Hello - I have been an A-M fan for years and enjoy the discourse..

Regarding the summae - would there not be a set of summae primers designed for the apprentice to get the best out of the theory and be cheap too? so a L5 Q15 to allow a new student to learn up to L5 in a season?

or an even cheaper L4 Q10 to get the absolute basics if you are strapped for cash (or influence)

these could easily be followed up with a couple of simple tractatii.

leading on to more intricate summae L10 Q10 and later onto masterworks, if you can get hold of them

the reasoning behind different tiers of summae would be cost and availibility. Can your magus justify the expenses in buying the 10/10 outright rather than a set of 4/10s

after about L8-ish you will be gaining one level a season and as you progress further levels will take multiple seasons to study, which is where tractatii come in. The early tractatii (L5ish) can be seen to be inefficient but easy to find while later tractatii could be treated as modern research papers - available for those in the know.

1 Like

Yes. Writing a book to a specific student is silly - it (almost always) would be a better use of your time to simply teach such a student. Or let her/him suffer.

More threadomacy! Yay.

Yes. Take a look at the "roots" mentioned in Covenants. That's exactly the idea that shows up in canon.

It's not even about this student. What was apparently entirely missed about my comment above is that the 6/24 summa, which requires lowering the level from 7/23 or beyond unless you're doing some really abusive book quality stuff, is almost always worse for this particular student than the 7/23 summa is. So even writing for that one poor student, you're better off writing the 7/23 summa. And on top of that the 7/23 is also notably better for just about everyone else.