Learning Spells from a Teacher

"The greatest magic ever discussed at great length."
:laughing:

Just realized another disadvantage to the current rule. It penalizes the generalist versus a specialist with a focus applicable to one of the spell he teaches.

Let's take two example magi. One is a generalist with 10 in every Art (that's 825 xp). His lab total in all combinations will be around 30, so that's all he can teach in a season. The second one is a specialist, with 13 Arts at 5 (195 xp) and the rest spread in a TeFo combination so 24 in each (600 xp) and a minor focus that applies to one of the spells he teaches. His best lab total is around 80.

They have the same xp in their Arts (in fact, the specialist has a little less). All other things being equal, I think their capacity for teaching spell should be roughly equivalent. Just MHO.

That's because generalists stink! IMNSHO.

I love this abreviation! Is it used anywhere except here and the Berklist though?

I (and a few others) have occasionally used IMAO as well.

Oh, I've used it on a number of lists and fora.

If they stink so much, then why should the rules beat on them even more?

My point is that the more absurdely specialize the magus, the better he is at teaching spells. And he'll probably end up teaching most of these spells outside of his specialty. I find that dumb.

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It's just one my comment to add to my aresenal to not generalize. :smiley:
Ars Magica will beat you down in so many ways if you generalize. Just don't do it, man!

Here's how I can rationalize how the teacher's higher lab total for a TeFo allows him to teach more. It's a subject he's jazzed about. When teachers get onto subjects that they are more excited about they tend to reveal all kinds of extra and interesting information than they otherwise would (they actually teach more!). Well maybe they really don't, but class is more enjoyable when a professor or teacher is riffing on a favorite topic.

:laughing: but also :unamused:

I would agree, if the teacher was actually concentrating most of his teaching efforts into the subject he's interested in.

And what about that teaching who knows things about so many different subjects, able to show the links between physics, history, finance and sociology all in that same class? Don't you consider them just as passionate about teaching?

IMO, the potential for teaching spells in a season should be determined by both the depth and breadth of his knowledge.

So if you're only touching a single TeFo combination, then using the lab total makes sense. If teaching spells on many combinations, then maybe a formula based on Magic Theory is more appropriate. And in any case, he should be able to teach any one spell that he knows, if the student is able to learn it.

But again that's just talking. :slight_smile:

Generalists just suck. I've played them a time or two. In a group of magi, someone can always do something better than you can, at best you're the utility player, the backup. The character doesn't even rate a Lt. Barclay type of story, because he's just not very good at anything. Being good at something, a Te, a Fo, or a TeFo combination leads to wildly interesting things, suboptimal spell designs so you can stay within your favored TeFo... Being the goto magus for the covenant when a problem that is best solved by the Te or Fo specialty. Praxiteles will be a generalist, except for his Rego and Terram probably being a bit higher, but he'll always play second fiddle to Petronius. But his ability to craft things with magic is where his specialty comes through. That's where he's specialised, with his Finesse ability.

Then perhaps the number of spells taught should be a limit of Teaching (ability), or a combination of Teaching and Magic Theory?

Actually, there is one kind of magic where the generalist will shine: spells that require many requisites. But in general I agree, generalists are generally dull to play in a multi-player saga (a single-payer saga is a different matter). Still, a generalist should make a great teacher, as he is a living encyclopedia.

That's a possibility. It all depends on what teaching spells actually does.

Since it uses the student's Lab Total as a limit for spells in a specific TeFo combination, I see the teacher as a very efficient form of lab assistant. He's walking the student through the process of inventing each spell quickly. That is why I was proposing using Magic Theory as a base for the limit -- his understanding of the theory behind the spells allow him coach the student through the spell invention process.

The downside is that Magic Theory is just so damn useful already, and its value can vary dramatically between different magi and experience level (from 3 to 15 or more).

In any case, your comment regarding the Flambeau master being unable to teach his apprentice because of a low MT score lead me to think that at a minimum, the teacher should be able to teach any spell he knows in a single season, provided the student is able to learn it.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the current rules, with their simplicity, can be perfectly justified.

Pyrophilos of Flambeau has a Creo Ignem lab total of 100 with fire spells (not just Ignem, specifically fires, because of his focus). His Intellego Animal and Intellego Herbam lab totals are a meager 25 each, though, barely enough to teach you either Converse with Plant and Tree (InHe25) or Opening the Tome of the Animal's Mind (InAn25) in a season. But if he teaches you Ball of Abysmal Fire and/or Blade of the Virulent Flame, he can also teach you inthesameseason* both Converse with Plant and Tree and Opening the Tome of the Animal's Mind (35+15+25+25=100).

Counterintuitive? Not really. Pyrophilos's understanding of magic is fundamentally shaped by his understanding of fire magics. If he teaches you magic, and you don't absorb his idiosynchratic views (whether because he thinks you unworthy to be taught fire magics, or because you really are too deficient to learn them) you won't make as much sense of his other spells either, and it will all be much more difficult. So the most efficient course of action for him, if he can, is to illustrate his basic concepts with Blade of Virulent Flame, and then you'll be "on the same page", so to speak, and will make much more progress.

Of course, if the only low level fire magic he can teach you and base his examples on is Blade of Virulent Flame, and he has to teach you spells for a dozen seasons, by the end of it you'll have heard enough references to Blade of Virulent Flame to have learnt it a dozen times. "Conversing with a tree? You really have to understand that you have to speak to the whole tree, covering it with your meaning like a blade with a flame ... Uhm, turning into a badger? The fundamental thing to keep in mind is that underneath the badger, there's still you, like a blade covered in flames is still a blade, not a fire...". Boring, but you should expect it if you waste the talent of a master of fire magics on teaching you about trees and badgers.

There's realistically two teaching scenarios that come up:

  1. The teacher is imparting a wide range of low-level spells to the student. Note that low-level here is relative; level 25 might be low level to a 200-year-old archmage.

  2. The teacher is imparting a select set of their more potent spells to the student.

In scenario 1 (the master-apprentice relationship) using the highest TeFo as a total limiter isn't really an issue, because the student is learning a whole range of things. It's as good a limiter as any to indicate the overall power of the magus in question. So it's not really a loophole that's worth worrying about - the student is getting huge benefit, the teacher knows it and there's probably been some very interesting politics to even get to this situation if this isn't actually a master and apprentice.

In scenario 2, the teacher is likely using either very high or their highest arts to teach with anyway, and chances are they'll only have a maximum excess of 5-10 levels. 5-10 of these will be taken up with the 'oh, and a spell from my best arts', meaning all that's happened is the teacher has thrown in an extra spell from their area of specialty and maybe one extra level 5 spell for kicks. I personally have no problem with this, it seems thematic and makes sense.

A final note: the teacher can't teach more than their TeFo lab total in that TeFo - which is likely to be the critical limiter of teaching effectiveness in scenario 2 rather than their highest overall TeFo.

TL;DR: the loophole is unlikely to ever cause your saga problems, so personally I'd not worry. :smiley: