"Using alchemical techniques, the maga can prepare a specific item with a relevant shape or material bonus to assist in the casting of one [formulaic/spontaneous] spell. The preparation takes [a few hours], during which time the maga requires access to her laboratory. During the preparation, the maga must have a particular spell in mind. Once prepared, the item gives a bonus to the Casting Score equal to the item's shape and material bonus, limited by the maga's magic theory at the time of preparation. Only one such item may be used in each casting, but the components are not consumed, and may be reused for future castings once the alchemical preparation is repeated."
Maybe needs a timelimit on how long the preparation lasts, to prevent stockpiling.
The big drawback of this one is that it steps on Potent Magic's toes - there are significant differences, but also strong similarities to about half that virtue.
This is pretty close to what I was thinking - and rejected because it was too close to Potent Magic.
Still, I like it a lot better than the current Vulgar Alchemy virtue.
It's a bit powerful but not overly so, and it strays from the shape and material or vis distillation approach but also finally connects Hermetic Alchemy with, well, actual alchemy.
+1, as well. In reading through Mythic Alchemy....sure, that'll work. It's a lab activity for potions/charged items that makes instantaneous MuTe(He,Aq,An) effects. As such, it could fairly easily be re-written as a minor Hermetic virtue (with no associated extra ability - just use a standard lab total) that allows for just that.
You are? Please try again, and we'll see what happens.
Does anyone other than you even know it exists, let alone know what is does?
I seem to remember it from years ago when I browsed TMRE. It seemed both difficult and of little use.
I never claimed to be actively trying to persuade my regular group to ret-con it out of existance
I kinda hope no-one else in our troupe knows what it does, because ewwwwww.
It's not very useful, it sets a virtue up as a requirement for something that I think all magi should be able to do, as (very) minor breakthroughs if anything, and worse yet:
It sets up a very clumsy, bluntly mechanical method up for defining power/level and (to a lesser degree) width of Shape and Material boni, something which I really think should depend on the item in question, not the person doing the research.
In effect, it becomes a silly stumbling block on the path of any budding alchemist. Maybe ask RdY about 'Feat Tax' - except this is even more annoying, since you're working fairly hard for it and get... this mess.
I'd pretend it doesn't exist, to be honest.
I just re-read Vulgar Alchemy, after many years have passed since I bought TMRE.
I'm not impressed. Even though the result (new S&M boni) may seem interesting the method seems off.
Because of a need to experiment it'll statistically be a huge waste of vis. It may work better with charged devices, since a failed experimental season is (usually) just a wasted season.
I'm not sure what to make of it. Should magi be able to find and formalize their own, new S&M boni? That could be pretty cool, plus is should be within the scope of Hermetic Theory. It should take some work thoúgh and not be for beginners. Maybe use methods like Integration rather than Breakthrough, because the former seems easier than the latter.
I gave my opinion up thread a little but I'll give it again (and then stop repeating it for quite some time).
My current preference is that magi should not be able to formulize their own new shape and material bonuses, we should assume that they already know any appropriate shape and material bonuses (I imagine that if there were a complete list it would be about 10,000 items long). Let the players have their characters use whatever bonuses that they think are cool, with story guide approval. This lets the players use their imaginations and frees up their characters to do something else.
I like your idea in that it doesn't gate investigation of new bonuses behind a virtue.
There are basically 3 possibilities here, that I can see:
S&M boni are purely inherent to the shape/material in question. No point in researching it, because there's never any need. Erik, this is your stance, correct?
S&M boni need to be "unlocked", but doing so isn't terribly difficult. Any magus can do it, probably with Original Research, and a (very) minor breakthrough. Perhaps it's not so much that you need to unlock the power, as figuring out how to integrate it into your projects. I'm mostly leaning towards this stance, though I could be persuaded to follow 1) above. Christian, is this your stance as well?
S&M boni are unlocked, a process so badly integrated into hermetic theory that it requires a virtue. This appears to be the stance of the Vulgar Alchemy virtue, and possibly a few others?
Is this reasonably summarized?
...and then obviously there's the whole question of whether this all is relevant for the original topic of the thread, or if we should be going back to brainstorming something for Vulgar Magic to do, completely unrelated?
What about possibility:
4) S&M bonuses are not part of Hermetic theory, but are "pre-Hermetic" (TMRE p.32) and do "derive from hedge alchemy, the brewing of potions and charms" (TMRE p.32). They hail from times where you had to use Magic Lore (see TMRE p.34 Testing the Components). Some are commonly used in Hermetic enchantments today, while many other are now disdained and forgotten, and some were never found.
There are still a few black-faced practitioners fiddling with varying ingredients and braving the occasional explosion, who sometimes (re)discover further S&M bonuses: the Vulgar Alchimists.
If you have been initiated into their less than reputable practices incorporating folk-magic and messing up labs, you too can be commiserated by your sodales and discover the occasional forgotten or new S&M bonus. And your brothers in Vulgar Alchemy might tell you a few more, which the haughty Bonisagi will never list in their dead files at Durenmar.
Yup that sums it up nicely.
Option 1) is fine with me. There may be 10.000 different items, but not all magi know all of them. Agree with your Troupe if you want one ttah's not on any of the published lists.
Option 2) could work as well, if you wanted to bother with this. I'd prefer if the scope and value of the S&M is still something deciced upon by the Troupe, not something where high Magic Trory or whatever can giver higher bonus. And then a none-too-difficult lab proces. Option 1) is still easier.
Consider these two scenarios:
A) Titus from the Rhine travels to Africa, where he kills some mythic beast. He brings home a body part as trophy, relevant to the powers or concept of the beast.
A1) Is has a nice S&M bonus which the Troupe invents on the spot. In theory this was a fact already known, to some. Although nobody in the Rhine had ever heard of this kind of beast, so nobody thought about it before Titus brought home the thing.
A2) Titus needs to perform some kind of labwork to unlock a compleyely new S&M, relevant to the beast in question.
B) Titus stays home in the Rhine, but his player notices some plant or something which does not have any S&M. After some research it seems said item is associated with...whatever, so it seems reasonable that it has one.
B1) The Troupe just decided on something plausible, and this fact it retconned into existence. Perhaps an NPC previously met, who performs magic relevant to this S&M, is decided in retrospect to have this item in her Talisman. The potential problem lies if another player feels shafted if he would have done some things differently had he known about this S&M earlier.
B2) As A2
Personally, I would have made sure no S&M is less then +3, because they seem too weak lower than this.
The summation seems sufficiently complete and correct to me.
Also regarding the topic I started the thread about; having looked at Art and Academe and Hedge magic revised I like using mythic alchemy for vulgar alchemy because it actually uses the alchemy stuff in A&A. That's a really good idea.
Because I don't want One Shot to think that I ignored his post, yes, you're right. Vulgar alchemy in TMRE is about more than just getting new shape an material bonuses on the list. It's possible to use it to get bonuses with more restricted applications much more easily, and even getting a fully realized shape and material bonus is, probably, on average less work than a minor breakthrough.
There's precedent for different traditions having different costs - the Amazons chapter of Rival Magic has several virtues and flaws which are major for them, but minor for Hermetics.
