Let's talk House rule for Twilight.

Hi,

Agreed! The hallmark of an excellent rule is that using it makes the game better.

I have a different issue with the Research rules. Breakthroughs change the rules of the game. They change what Hermetic Magic is. Changes of this kind are better represented by story events than by dice rolls. After all, if the group doesn't want a certain breakthrough, the research rules don't work. If the group does want the breakthrough, the rules are probably not relevant; the stories that lead to the breakthrough matter. So the breakthrough rules don't work well for NPCs, because GMs will simply decree what breakthroughs have been accomplished, if any, and they don't work well for PCs.

I would also be very surprised if the Twilight rules are actually applied rigorously to NPCs, except when they go Twilight during play rather than behind the scenes.

considers

My solution for Breakthroughs ITSIDR is that I let players know that they almost certainly will not succeed, but the attempt involves less experimentation and more questing and adventuring. So a player might need to find the last copy of a rare book, spend a few seasons reading until he feels confident that his Cult of Acathla Lore is sufficiently high for him to infiltrate the Cult. Then he has to find the Cult, which takes some more reading, unless he prefers to discuss the matter with a dragon who lairs deep in the Alps and figures in an old story involving some wayward cultists who became lunch. Naturally, there's no point meeting the dragon without a good Parma Magica and without a gift that both suits the dragon's taste and that corresponds to the quest....

I suspect any game mechanic that has players rolling dice during downtime, because downtime becomes longer, often at the expense of uptime. I also suspect any game mechanic where the GM feels a need to ignore extreme rolls; if the GM does not want the player to gain 512xp on a good stress roll, then some other mechanic belongs. (This, btw, is why I dislike rolling up characters. The guy with perfect stats is possible, but never welcome.)

I have not yet written up my variant Warping and Twilight rules. They still need tweaking. But they go something like this:

  1. Warping Score adds to all casting scores, supernatural abilities and lab totals, representing connection to and affinity with the supernatural. Go Warp!

  2. As a character's Warping Score increases past a certain point, he becomes less able to function in inimical Auras. First he begins to suffer the penalties and extra botch dice to everything he does there, then must make an extra aging roll during any season he spends even a moment in such places, and finally Wounds of increasing severity, potentially Fatal. These penalties start to apply only at the very highest inimical Auras, but work their way down as Warping increases further. To survive, a character with a high Warping Score must increasingly retreat from the world. Old magi don't die, they fade into Twilight.

  3. A magus can suffer temporary Twilight, but the character often does not leave play for even an instant. When he does, that is the botch effect and, like any botch effect, is determined by the GM rather than by a die roll. Subjectively, the character gets to do the usual Twilight comprehension thing.

Anyway,

Ken

No need to be so formal. Just call me Marko (I routinely introduce myself to new people as "Marko Markoko").
But anyway, yes, I am meeting you half way. Actual Twilight rules, I have no problem with. Warping is a bit excessive IMO, though I understand the need to have some sort of accumulation rule and I do agree they are quite elegant (I think David Woods invented the new system). I just prefer to dial it down a little bit.

I cant help but feel reading thorugh this that people are asking for more 'I win' factors.

Issues with twilight - omg my mage just passed out of play for 7 years.... Erm, pretty sure that only happens if you roll some staggeringly unlikely dice combination and are already a good long way along the road to final twilight. What's the problem,the only problem I see is players wanting to be 100 years old and fit as a fiddle, in body soul and mind - ignoring the fact that they are twisted by magical forces and held together by magical chewing-gum. This does not happen to 50 year old mages casting formulaic spells in a magicla arua. It happens a lot to 140 year old mages casting spontanous spells, using Vis in an infernal one though. You take thise risks you live with those consequences.

Warping points? Only reason to consider them too heavy again seems to be about wanting to live longer. Has anyone genuinely played for long enough to take a character out of apprenticeship and right through to final twilight 150 years later? I am sure people have, but it cannot be many or a very common thing. If they have frankly they are playing the 'gods game'. The whole game breaks down massively at the top end anyway - why push it any harder.

Not that I am saying here 'everyone else should do it my way' simply stating I feel older magi should be a lot more risk averse, and I do not enjoy the gaming experience of the higher end. I like the whole 'semi-retired' aspect that warping scores give older magi when they become very risk-averse.

Personally, no extra warping points die and longevity rituals not giving warping points has been standard whenever no more "exotic" variant has been used.
Also the ability to use a high level ritual spell to reduce warping have been included more than not.

Now THIS one, i like lots!

Hi,

Not "I win" so much as "I'm cool."

My attitude toward game mechanics is that they should not produce unwanted results. To the extent that they do, the mechanic is broken.

A common perspective on game mechanics, always unstated, understated or flatly denied, wherefore I shall overstate it here, whose paragon I consider to be Steve Long, is that game mechanics exist only to create excitement and the illusion that player actions matter: When game mechanics produce results that the GM does not want, the results should be flatly ignored, because the fun lies in the story.

The two most common ways to achieve this with rules that most people consider at least ok (and that cover the situation; I thus exclude situations that are out of a system's scope and thereby force a GM to improvise, and rules systems that explicitly lack the usual resolution mechanics in order to promote rule by fiat or consensus) are 1) devise mechanics that produce results that are so random and all over the place, that players are thankful for a GM who ignores the rules, or 2) devise mechanics that appear reasonable yet do not allow characters to do very much, so that the GM is encouraged to ignore the mechanics to allow cool actions that he thinks "fit", and the players are grateful for being allowed to do something.

There is nothing evil about this other perspective: It makes GMing easier, and few players ever notice.

I like elegant rules.

But I digress. Well, I digress a little.

See above.

I also have an issue with what I call "White Wolf" gaming philosophy, in which players are given cool (well, moderately cool) powers for their characters, and also saddled with game mechanics that punish them for using these powers. Every White Wolf game has mechanics like this, from Vampire to Exalted. They exist to support average players and GMs.... another conversation. In a nutshell, few games can handle "yes, Good Humor Man, just say the word and all of Brittania will die laughing; no, there are no game mechanics or screwy fumble dice to stop you, and you didn't take Sanity as a Major Disadvantage."

Sign me up!

It actually can. A character in a game with 1 story per year (the old AM2 recommendation) can go up in a puff of Twilight remarkably quickly. Your comment also sidesteps the issue of a magus, supposedly in his prime, vanishing for a season during the middle of a critical battle.

But philosophically, I look at something different: What breaks if magi can live 1000 years? (Answer: There is no room for your characters, who are overshadowed by cooler wizards.) Ok, so what breaks if there are no cooler wizards, and your character gets to become one? (Answer: It becomes harder to tell stories, because it is much easier to run games that challenge characters who are incompetent, or, at least less competent.) And that's where I stop, and suggest "go for the harder stories."

Well, I don't quite stop, because I then ask what would break if there were no botches? (Answer: All those games in which the primary excitement comes from rolling dice would be in big trouble.)

Indeed it does. Oddly, this top end is where people who are not familiar with the game think it is supposed to shine.

I kind of like that too. But I like even more encouraging players to play the characters they create rather than hole up. AM already suffers, IMO, in the way the rules encourage characters to avoid stories. I do give it points for modeling reality! I also have a fundamental aversion to fumbles arising out of dice rolls; I prefer 'botches' that arise out of character choices. That's a matter of taste, of course.

Closer to the game as it is, retaining botches and limiting the useful lifespan of magi (though I think that living 130 years isn't all that epic), I'm curious what would break if Final Twilight were more of a slow, forced retreat from the world than a sudden "surprise, you're gone!"

Anyway,

Ken

Thats is something I unreservedly agreed with.

I guess the point of divergence is we want slighty different things. I personally like the growing fear in a character of their own end. Not from being stabbed in the head, or poisoned, but by simply donig what they do. It takes a very very long time to reach this but there are many milestones on the way to keep reminding them this end is coming.

In the considerably more likely event that a mgus in his 'prime' is knocked out for a season the story is not ruined, there is just a new challenge. The goons perform a fighting retreat, dragging the delerious magus with them. You get back home, form a new group and go back... or the goons fail and a new group is formed. All story opportunities as far as I am concerned. Most of our stories are in several episodes anyway with gaps in between. This event simply changes the episode end time. Frankly you can wash over it very swiftly anyway as a GM and get the story moving again within half an hour.

I commend your dedication though, even at one story per year you must have played 2nd a very great deal. The only times I have managed magi of that order has been with a couple of large slices of time passing between two adventures. 20 years or so of advancement in a bound. Usually when restarting a campaign after playing something else for a year or so in between ArM. I have been playing that long (I am assuming 2nd was the black one with the red circle in the middle - long since lost/loaned out and forgotten) but not nearly that consistently.

Hi,

lol No, no. That's what the AM2 rules suggest is the usual pattern for magi, iirc. One story per year, usually during the summer.

[quote]
Anyway,

Ken

It isn't the end result of winking out or mortality that concerns me so. It is the extremely rapid accumulation of creepy Warping effects. Not so much for magi, they have the gift of Twilight instead. I am more concerned with mundanes. People and objects start to get strange after only 5 points. For a constant effect, I understand. But because I cast a powerful and/or long lasting protective spell on my grog five times in the last adventure?

IMS, I raised the threshold for "powerful magic" to at least level 35 (7th magnitude), and for an effect to be considered "constant", it should really be continuous through most of the year.

This is the best part... I love creepy warped grogs. It gives them flavour. They are going to die of old age long before they grow an extra head unless your saga is adventure rich.

Rich Adventures, and many of them :wink:.
Would you like to join one?

Hi,

I like creeping creepiness! But not creeping crippling creepiness.

It's sort of like Magi, er Pirates of the Caribbean.

Spend lots of time aboard the Flying Dutchman, and you start getting creepy. Or aboard the Black Pearl. That's Warping the way I like it. No Twilight for these guys--but somehow they don't get invited to all the good social engagements, and after a while, they no longer belong in the ordinary world.

Anyway,

Ken