Given our function, probably more often than the average covenant--at least once a month.
Scott
It's in the charter: they have full access, though our bylaws could determine who gets priority when two magi need to use the same book.
Scott
Is it? The only references I can see to visitors' rights (aside from aegis tokens) are:
Now, there's a good case that access to the library comes under hospitality, and I certainly don't think that denying access is a good plan, but at the same time, there's a certain flexibility over details left.
When I wrote the charter, I intended it to include library access--the dedicating Tribunal (Thebes) insisted on it. Of course, that's dependent on the guests' abiding by the rules, and yes, there may be some wiggle room on details, as I noted above.
Scott
Here's a revision proposal. In coming up with this I found a number of places where Salutor's arithmetic was off (the spell lab texts and ability tractatus subtotals were counted as WAY lower than the actual totals, and a bunch of individual items didn't have the correct build points assigned, too). Anyway, I played with switching tractatus to summae, and checked against everyone's character sheets to make sure the summae are sufficient that everyone can get a lot of study in their primary arts. Shouldn't be anyone I missed, or any gaps in the library regarding arts, and this all adds up to our 673bp allotment. Could this allocation make everyone happy?
EDIT: Second draft-- this is a total of 674 points, which leaves us 4 points left over, one more lab text maybe?
Art Summae - 370bp
*Principia Fabricata by Portia Verditii. Creo summa, level 9 quality 15. 0bp
Insights into Insight, by Justinius Tremendi. Intellego summa, level 16 quality 12. 28bp.
Taking the Shapes of the Sky and Forest, by Claricia Mercandi. Muto summa, level 18 quality 12. 30bp
The End of Love, by Lacrimadia Bonisagi. Perdo summa, level 15 quality 11. 26bp
Discipline and Restraint, by Amphelisia Tremendi. Rego summa, level 16 quality 15. 31bp
Sanguine, Choleric, and Phlegmatic Beasts, by Aquila Bjornaeris. Animal summa, level 18 quality 12. 30bp.
The Baltic Sea, by Greywing Bjornaeris. Aquam Tractatus, Aquam summa, level 10 quality 10. 20bp.
The Following Breeze, by Greywing Bjornaeris. Auram summa, level 16 quality 12. 28bp.
Blood and Tears, by Lacrimadia Bonisagi. Corpus summa, level 16 quality 12. 30bp.
Leaf and Branch, by Leona Bjornaeris. Herbam summa, level 12 quality 12. 24bp
Cold and Chill: The School of Boreas, by Fulvius Flambonis. Ignem summa, level 12 quality 10. 22bp.
Sight and Sound, by Clunia Jerbitonis. Imaginem summa, level 10 quality 10. 20bp.
The Senses and Sensibility, by Clunia Jerbitonis. Mentem summa, level 12 quality 15. 27bp.
Stone and Steel, by Lacuna Guernici. Terram summa, level 15 quality 12. 24bp.
Analysing Vis, by Patricius Bonisagi. Vim summa, level 18 quality 12. 30bp.
Art Tractatus - 54bp
The Creation of Unnatural Objects in the Absence of an Ideal Form, by Plinius Bonisagi. Creo Tractatus, Quality 11. 11bp.
Vivat Crescat Floreat, by Litha Merinitae. Creo tractatus, quality 11. 11bp.
Viewing the Threads of Magic, by Erastus Guernici. Intellego Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
Aging to Maturity, by Venetia Jerbitonis. Corpus Tractatus, Quality 11. 11bp.
The Magical Properties of Emeralds, by Bertrando Verditii. Terram Tractatus, Quality 11. 11bp.
Ability Summae - 77bp
The Wisdom of my Pater, by Trianoma Bonisagi. Magic Theory, level 5, quality 11. 26bp.
Magic Animals by Gyrgos the Familiar. Summa on Magic Lore, level 5, quality 10. Animal specialty is automatically acquired by the reader. 25bp.
The Shield of the Order, by Octavian Tremendi. Parma Magica Summa, Level 5, Quality 11. 26bp.
Ability Tractatus - 63bp
*Priscum Fundamentum, by Portia Verditii. Magic Theory Tractatus, Quality 12. 0bp.
In the Laboratory, by Cuprincus Verditii. Magic Theory Tractatus, Quality 11. 11bp.
De Accessione et Recessione Maris ("Tides and Tidal Movements", by Robert Grosseteste. Philosophae Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
Using Vilano's Sling, by Maria Flambonis. Finesse Tractatus, Quality 11. 11bp.
Overcoming the Might of Magical Creatures, by Arluin Flambonis. Penetration Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
*Covenants of the Tribunal of Thebes by Poseidon of Guernicus. Tractatus on Order of Hermes Lore, quality 11. 11bp.
*The Travels of Igor Igorowich. Tractatus on Area Lore: Ukraine, quality 10. 10bp.
Spell Lab Texts - 78bp
The Wizard's Mount CrAn 35 7
Purification of the Festering Wound (CrCo20) 4
Incantation of the Body Made Whole (CrCo40) 8
*Seven-League Stride (ReCo 30) 6
*Leap of Homecoming (ReCo 35) 7
Cloak of Black Feathers (MuCo(An) 30) 6
Veil of Invisibility (PeIm 15) 3
Thoughts Within the Babble (InMe 25) 5
*The Shrouded Glen (ReMe 40) 8bp
*Conjuring the Mystic Tower (CrTe 35) 7
*Wizard's Communion (MuVi 25) 5
Demon's Eternal Oblivion (PeVi 10) 2
*Maintaining the Demanding Spell (ReVi 50) 10
Spell Mastery Texts - 21bp
The Tower of Bonisagus, by Onesiphorus Bonisagi. Mastery tractatus on Conjuring the Mystic Tower, quality 10. 10bp.
Research Notes on the Aegis of the Hearth, by Notatus and others. Mastery tractatus on Aegis of the Hearth, quality 11. 11bp.
Enchanted Devices - 12bp
The Scribe's Work Anulled - 12bp
This simple elm wand was provided with the Parma Magica summa, for use in emergencies to prevent the great secret of the Order from falling into the hands of rival magicians. A second device, together with an arcane connection to the Parma book is held by quaesitor [name] in the Thebes tribunal. To activate the item, one touches the point of the wand to an arcane connection to the book one wishes to destroy, and speaks the trigger "In ruina, salus". The book will be completely obliterated.
PeAn(He) 30 (Base: 4; Range: AC; Target: Group)
Quick question before I think of anything else I want to say: what were the problems with the totals? Was it just arithmetic, or was there something more fundemental that I was misunderstanding the costs of?
Right, further thoughts:
- Several of your tractatus are too high a quality; the cap in quality at chargen is 11 (those that were higher in my lists had been specifically brought by individual magi).
- You've lost some magi's personally contributed books: you seem to have combined Aetos' 3 Animal tractatus into one summa, changed his Magic Lore summa and lost his Animal summa and Herbam tractatus. You've also lost both of Tasia's tractatus, and changed the level of Viola's OoHL tractatus. Probably best to check with individual people whether they mind (and you may need to PM at least JeanMichelle, as I'm not sure if he's actually reading this thread).
- We now have an extra 5 points to spend due to an error in the vis costs.
- By my sums, you've got 366 points of summae rather than 370
- I'd personally prefer slightly lower level higher quality summae to the high level ones we've got (not primer level, but more 12-14 than 15-18), but obviously I'm biased by having a junior magus.
- I'd also prefer more lab texts. In particular, an easily learnable version of AotH (yes, I know Portia can write a version, but it's level 40) and Thoughts Within Babble (given we're surrounded by people whose language we don't speak), but also more useful level 15 spells which only specialised magi are going to be able to invent in a season.
Also, ouch, the lab texts really don't add up, do they? I don't know what happened there - best guess is I just missed a portion of the list somehow. Thank-you for checking the sums.
I made a second draft, just edited the original post.
Ah, didn't know. Changed.
I combined or switched tractatus to summae, checking character sheets to make sure the summae were all sufficient level that they would get more mileage out of the summa than the tractatus they replaced. Will PM later if you think no one's paying attention to this thread.
Changed total (there's leftover points now).
Yep, you were right.
Which arts are you most interested in for your magus, and I'll fiddle with it?
Lab texts tend to be much easier to trade for than summae/tractatus, and cheaper. The build point system is much more favourable to buying up vis and vis sources and then purchasing lab texts later in gameplay. Maybe this is min-maxy of me, but I sort of assumed that was the intention when they set the bp cost of lab texts at level/5 instead of level/10.
I didn't notice until I cut some of them down, and then totaled up what I had and ended up with more bps than your subtotal. Thought I was going crazy there for a minute, until I realized what happened 
Don't know about no-one, but I've addressed at least one (I think several) questions to JeanMichelle in the thread in the past and not got a response. Also, several people (you and MTKnife, mostly) seem to miss posts occasionally due to problems with the board's notification system (I just tend to check the forum fairly frequently for red topics).
Arts I'm most interested in in the short term are Rego and Mentem in order to be able to bind Alcimus. In the medium term, also Intellego, Terram, Imaginem and Animal, but I wouldn't worry too much about all of those - I can go to the Tremere for better books to an extent, although I don't really want the fact that I can get better (or at least, wider - I'm not very sure yet quite what the restrictions on things available to me are going to be) access to books in exchange for losing approximately (probably a bit less than on average) a season a year to actively disadvantage me at library selection time. (That is, don't be too generous over the books, but at the same time please don't significantly cut them back on the basis that I can get them from the Tremere.)
OK, updated proposal slightly (just the Rego and Mentem summae)... better?
Version n of the library. I've taken Arya's last draft, and modified it approximately as follows:
- Put back in the specific books people had said they were bringing with them.
- Lowered the general quality and levels of the summae, as I felt it was a bit unrealistic we'd have quite so many very good books donated to us, especially given I've now read TSE and it implies a lot of the local books would actually be in Greek.
- Added in a tractatus on the Theban Tribunal's peripheral code, as upon reading TSE there are some significant differences to the rest of the Order, and it's probably the sort of thing the tribunal would care about us knowing.
- Added back in a few extra lab texts.
- Rebalanced things so that it adds up (hopefully) to 678bp, i.e. the original 683, plus extra 5 points for vis miscounting, less 10 points for replacing Gregorius' minor lab virtue with a size increase. This has meant deleting some of the summae, so there are now several arts not covered. I think they're the ones people care about less, though, and we can always try to trade for the extras.
Art Summae - 300 bp
*Principia Fabricata by Portia Verditii. Creo summa, level 9 quality 15. 0bp
Insights into Insight, by Justinius Tremendi. Intellego summa, level 16 quality 12. 28bp.
Transformation, by Claricia Mercandi. Muto summa, level 14 quality 15. 29bp
Discipline and Restraint, by Amphelisia Tremendi. Rego summa, level 16 quality 15. 31bp
What do people think?
Winged Creatures by unknown. Animal Summa, Level 15, Quality 8. 23bp
The Following Breeze, by Greywing Bjornaeris. Auram summa, level 16 quality 12. 28bp.
Blood and Tears, by Lacrimadia Bonisagi. Corpus summa, level 14 quality 14. 28bp.
Leaf and Branch, by Leona Bjornaeris. Herbam summa, level 12 quality 14. 26bp
The Nature of Species, by Clunia Jerbitonis. Imaginem summa, level 14 quality 12. 26bp.
The Senses and Sensibility, by Clunia Jerbitonis. Mentem summa, level 12 quality 15. 27bp.
Stone and Steel, by Lacuna Guernici. Terram summa, level 15 quality 12. 27bp.
Analysing Vis, by Patricius Bonisagi. Vim summa, level 15 quality 12. 27bp.
Art Tractatus - 106 bp
The Creation of Unnatural Objects in the Absence of an Ideal Form, by Plinius Bonisagi. Creo Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
Viewing the Threads of Magic, by Erastus Guernici. Intellego Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
*Insights into Insight (Q12 Intellego tractatus). 12bp.
*Domination of the Magi (Q 10 Rego tractatus). 10bp.
The End of Love, by Lacrimadia Bonisagi. Perdo tractatus, quality 9. 9bp
*Sanguine Beasts, by Aquila Bjornaeris. Animal tractatus, quality 11. 11bp
*Choleric Beasts, by Aquila Bjornaeris. Animal tractatus, quality 11. 11bp
*Phlegmatic Beasts, by Aquila Bjornaeris. Animal tractatus, quality 11. 11bp
*Herbal remedies by Hildegard Jerbitonis. Herbam tractatus, quality 13. 13bp.
The Magical Properties of Emeralds, by Bertrando Verditii. Terram Tractatus, Quality 9. 9bp.
Ability Summae - 78 bp
The Wisdom of my Pater, by Trianoma Bonisagi. Magic Theory, level 5, quality 11. 26bp.
*Magic Animals by Gyrgos the Familiar. Summa on Magic Lore, level 6, quality 8. Animal specialty is automatically acquired by the reader. 26bp.
The Shield of the Order, by Octavian Tremendi. Parma Magica Summa, Level 5, Quality 11. 26bp.
Ability Tractatus - 68bp
*Priscum Fundamentum, by Portia Verditii. Magic Theory Tractatus, Quality 12. 0bp.
In the Laboratory, by Cuprincus Verditii. Magic Theory Tractatus, Quality 11. 11bp.
De Accessione et Recessione Maris ("Tides and Tidal Movements", by Robert Grosseteste. Philosophae Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
Using Vilano's Sling, by Maria Flambonis. Finesse Tractatus, Quality 11. 11bp.
Overcoming the Might of Magical Creatures, by Arluin Flambonis. Penetration Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
*Covenants of the Tribunal of Thebes by Poseidon of Guernicus. Tractatus on Order of Hermes Lore, quality 8. 8bp.
An Examination of the Unique Features of the Peripheral Code of the Theban Tribunal, by Kastor Guernici. Tractatus on Code of Hermes, Quality 8. 8bp.
*The Travels of Igor Igorowich. Tractatus on Area Lore: Ukraine, quality 10. 10bp.
Spell Lab Texts - 93 bp
The Wizard's Mount (CrAn 35) 7
Doublet of Inpenetrable Silk (MuAn 15) 3
Bind Wound (CrCo 10) 2
Purification of the Festering Wound (CrCo 20) 4
Incantation of the Body Made Whole (CrCo 40) 8
*Seven-League Stride (ReCo 30) 6
*Leap of Homecoming (ReCo 35) 7
Cloak of Black Feathers (MuCo(An) 30) 6
Pilum of Fire (CrIg 20) 4
Veil of Invisibility (PeIm 20) 4
Thoughts Within Babble (InMe 25) 5
*The Shrouded Glen (ReMe 40) 8bp
*Conjuring the Mystic Tower (CrTe 35) 7
*Wizard's Communion (MuVi 25) 5
Demon's Eternal Oblivion (PeVi 10) 2
Aegis of the Hearth (ReVi 25) 5
*Maintaining the Demanding Spell (ReVi 50) 10
Spell Mastery Texts - 21bp
The Tower of Bonisagus, by Onesiphorus Bonisagi. Mastery tractatus on Conjuring the Mystic Tower, quality 10. 10bp.
Research Notes on the Aegis of the Hearth, by Notatus and others. Mastery tractatus on Aegis of the Hearth, quality 11. 11bp.
Enchanted Devices - 12bp
The Scribe's Work Anulled - 12bp
This simple elm wand was provided with the Parma Magica summa, for use in emergencies to prevent the great secret of the Order from falling into the hands of rival magicians. A second device, together with an arcane connection to the Parma book is held by quaesitor [name] in the Theban tribunal. To activate the item, one touches the point of the wand to an arcane connection to the book one wishes to destroy, and speaks the trigger "In ruina, salus". The book will be completely obliterated.
PeAn(He) 30 (Base: 4; Range: AC; Target: Group)
I'd rather not follow that--I actually had this discussion when I set up my last saga, in the late 1990's, and we came to the conclusion that the Thebans would have to be idiots to make themselves learn both Greek and Latin (at the time, there was another saga with a lot of online documentation for the Thebes Tribunal, and that SG and I had some discussion on the question).
The library itself looks fairly solid, though holes are unavoidable. The one thing I'm not sure of is the utility of a Magic Theory Summa at level 5, given that the rest of the library caters to more experienced magi.
Scott
Okay. I'd assumed the point was that most of them were native greek speakers anyway, and didn't bother learning Latin, so that they were learning 0 extra languages rather than 2, but I suspect in practices the differences between classical and medieval greek and the fact that most magi will actually end up needing to speak Latin anyway will mean it does end up as you say. It'll certainly make tribunal easier. I don't think we actually have any native theban magi, although of course Tasia has Gift of Tongues.
I can take that out again - I'd originally had it out in a previous draft, and then Arya had stuck it back in again, presumably on the rationale that it was a bit odd not having a MT book. It'll make Gregorius' first borrowed book an easy choice, at any rate. Any preferences on what I replace it with?
There are things that sound cool but don't stand up to deeper analysis, and this is the second one of them I've heard about from that book.
I think that replacing it with multiple MT Tractatus might be a better bet--but what do you think?
Scott
It's clearly not universally considered a good idea. For example, the Tremere would quite like to get rid of it, along with most of the rest of the unusual features of the Theban Tribunal's peripheral code (although probably not all - I can see them not minding some of the apprentice laws). It seems to be a fairly parochial thing. I don't have any particular objection to its removal.
Hmm. I think one extra MT tractatus, but probably not more than that. Maybe some extra lab texts for at least some of the rest?
Well, let me read it for myself first to see, but God know when that's going to be.
Why only one? The covenant will serve some senior magi, and so having three tractatus available in Magic Theory seems like a good idea.
Scott
We've already got two MT tractatus, though, so this is already bringing the number up to three. Five seems overkill - it's masses more than any other subject. Also, I've tended to view high MT as only really being of use of Magi who plan to spend lots of time enchanting items (due to the vis limits) and, to a lesser extent, spell research, who are less likely to be visiting the covenant in the first place - is that inaccurate?
You may be right, though I was thinking that MT may be a concern for Seekers and the like.
Scott
Realised that I never finished this. On balance, I'll add an extra two MT tractatus, and spend the remaining bp on lab texts:
Forging the Bronze Cord, by Antonio Merinitae. Magic Theory Tractatus, Quality 8. 8bp.
Forging the Golden Cord, by Antonio Merinitae. Magic Theory Tractatus, Quality 8. 8bp.
Gather the Essence of the Beast (ReVi 15). 3bp.
Enchantment of the Scrying Pool. (InAq 30). 6bp.
This gives:
[u]Total - 678 bp[/u]
Art Summae - 301 bp
*Principia Fabricata by Portia Verditii. Creo summa, level 9 quality 15. 0bp
Insights into Insight, by Justinius Tremendi. Intellego summa, level 16 quality 12. 28bp.
Transformation, by Claricia Mercandi. Muto summa, level 14 quality 15. 29bp
Discipline and Restraint, by Amphelisia Tremendi. Rego summa, level 16 quality 15. 31bp
Winged Creatures by unknown. Animal Summa, Level 15, Quality 8. 23bp
The Following Breeze, by Greywing Bjornaeris. Auram summa, level 16 quality 12. 28bp.
Blood and Tears, by Lacrimadia Bonisagi. Corpus summa, level 14 quality 14. 28bp.
Leaf and Branch, by Leona Bjornaeris. Herbam summa, level 12 quality 14. 26bp
The Nature of Species, by Clunia Jerbitonis. Imaginem summa, level 14 quality 12. 26bp.
The Senses and Sensibility, by Clunia Jerbitonis. Mentem summa, level 12 quality 16. 28bp.
Stone and Steel, by Lacuna Guernici. Terram summa, level 15 quality 12. 27bp.
Analysing Vis, by Patricius Bonisagi. Vim summa, level 15 quality 12. 27bp.
Art Tractatus - 106 bp
The Creation of Unnatural Objects in the Absence of an Ideal Form, by Plinius Bonisagi. Creo Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
Viewing the Threads of Magic, by Erastus Guernici. Intellego Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
*Insights into Insight (Q12 Intellego tractatus). 12bp.
*Domination of the Magi (Q 10 Rego tractatus). 10bp.
The End of Love, by Lacrimadia Bonisagi. Perdo tractatus, quality 9. 9bp
*Sanguine Beasts, by Aquila Bjornaeris. Animal tractatus, quality 11. 11bp
*Choleric Beasts, by Aquila Bjornaeris. Animal tractatus, quality 11. 11bp
*Phlegmatic Beasts, by Aquila Bjornaeris. Animal tractatus, quality 11. 11bp
*Herbal remedies by Hildegard Jerbitonis. Herbam tractatus, quality 13. 13bp.
The Magical Properties of Emeralds, by Bertrando Verditii. Terram Tractatus, Quality 9. 9bp.
Ability Summae - 52 bp
*Magic Animals by Gyrgos the Familiar. Summa on Magic Lore, level 6, quality 8. Animal specialty is automatically acquired by the reader. 26bp.
The Shield of the Order, by Octavian Tremendi. Parma Magica Summa, Level 5, Quality 11. 26bp.
Ability Tractatus - 84bp
*Priscum Fundamentum, by Portia Verditii. Magic Theory Tractatus, Quality 12. 0bp.
In the Laboratory, by Cuprincus Verditii. Magic Theory Tractatus, Quality 11. 11bp.
Forging the Bronze Cord, by Antonio Merinitae. Magic Theory Tractatus, Quality 8. 8bp.
Forging the Golden Cord, by Antonio Merinitae. Magic Theory Tractatus, Quality 8. 8bp.
De Accessione et Recessione Maris ("Tides and Tidal Movements", by Robert Grosseteste. Philosophae Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
Using Vilano's Sling, by Maria Flambonis. Finesse Tractatus, Quality 11. 11bp.
Overcoming the Might of Magical Creatures, by Arluin Flambonis. Penetration Tractatus, Quality 10. 10bp.
*Covenants of the Tribunal of Thebes by Poseidon of Guernicus. Tractatus on Order of Hermes Lore, quality 8. 8bp.
An Examination of the Unique Features of the Peripheral Code of the Theban Tribunal, by Kastor Guernici. Tractatus on Code of Hermes, Quality 8. 8bp.
*The Travels of Igor Igorowich. Tractatus on Area Lore: Ukraine, quality 10. 10bp.
Spell Lab Texts - 102 bp
Enchantment of the Scrying Pool. (InAq 30). 6bp.
The Wizard's Mount (CrAn 35) 7bp.
Doublet of Inpenetrable Silk (MuAn 15) 3bp.
Bind Wound (CrCo 10) 2bp.
Purification of the Festering Wound (CrCo 20) 4bp.
Incantation of the Body Made Whole (CrCo 40) 8bp.
*Seven-League Stride (ReCo 30) 6bp.
*Leap of Homecoming (ReCo 35) 7bp.
Cloak of Black Feathers (MuCo(An) 30) 6bp.
Pilum of Fire (CrIg 20) 4bp.
Veil of Invisibility (PeIm 20) 4bp.
Thoughts Within Babble (InMe 25) 5bp.
*The Shrouded Glen (ReMe 40) 8bp
*Conjuring the Mystic Tower (CrTe 35) 7bp.
*Wizard's Communion (MuVi 25) 5bp.
Demon's Eternal Oblivion (PeVi 10) 2bp.
Gather the Essence of the Beast (ReVi 15). 3bp.
Aegis of the Hearth (ReVi 25) 5bp.
*Maintaining the Demanding Spell (ReVi 50) 10bp.
Spell Mastery Texts - 21bp
The Tower of Bonisagus, by Onesiphorus Bonisagi. Mastery tractatus on Conjuring the Mystic Tower, quality 10. 10bp.
Research Notes on the Aegis of the Hearth, by Notatus and others. Mastery tractatus on Aegis of the Hearth, quality 11. 11bp.
Enchanted Devices - 12bp
The Scribe's Work Anulled - 12bp
This simple elm wand was provided with the Parma Magica summa, for use in emergencies to prevent the great secret of the Order from falling into the hands of rival magicians. A second device, together with an arcane connection to the Parma book is held by quaesitor [name] in the Theban tribunal. To activate the item, one touches the point of the wand to an arcane connection to the book one wishes to destroy, and speaks the trigger "In ruina, salus". The book will be completely obliterated.
PeAn(He) 30 (Base: 4; Range: AC; Target: Group)
OK, that looks good.
Scott