Line Quality

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@LuciusT

@Timothy Ferguson

Frankly, no, I don't really see why I should toughen up, if the point of it is to allow clowns who have, from your example, not read my work, come into a forum which I frequent and tell me, effectively, to stop writing.

People are going to say, sometimes to your face, that your work sucks. If they haven't read it, they don't know what they're talking about but they're still going to say it. If you let it bother you, you give them power. If you let is wash over you like the bad air that it is and get on with doing good work, no matter what some idiot on the 'net says, then you've got the power. So, yeah, I say toughen up, don't let the jerks get you down and do your best.

But why not go one step further and say "Jerks are not welcome to jerk here." That is, why is it so strange to suggest that the burden of politness is on the loud and ignorant, not on the authors? There are some people who I would have liked to write for the line who choose not to, because they don't want to deal with the abuse. I, personally, gave up the Berklist because I was tired of the constant heckling and the demand that I defend every fact in every book, line by line, by abusive posters.

My presence here is voluntary - I am not an employee of Atlas. If posters cannot be civil then the forum will become like the D&D forums, or the Star Wars forums, where the authors avoid their game/franchise fandoms. You either be polite to the authors or you don't get their presence: demanding that they "toughen up" so that they tolerate the level of rudeness you are advocating is, IMO, a niaeve thing. Why should I bother to toughen up? What's in it for me?

When I run a writer's seminar for Ars magica in a couple of hours, why should I say to the young authors "Sure, some of the posters are going to send you hate mail in which they accuse you of being a Nazi sympathiser. Sure, you'll recieve more mail about a single tiny flaw, like the timing issue of crossbow fire than you will about the whole of the rest of the book its in, even if it solves big problem for the line (like the cost of castles), but you should just harden up! Whyever would one of these authors write for Ars on that basis, when, being Aussies, their other option is to write independent games instead, and not have to deal with toxic fans?

@Timothy Ferguson

This is not a public space. This is a private forum run by Atlas Games as part of their commercial interest, and you agreed when you signed the terms and conditions of use to be polite to the other users. If they are being offended by you, it's not their fault, and demands that they should let you, or anyone else, act against Atlas's commerical interest in Atlas's own place of business on the web are misguided.

I don't disagree. That's why there are moderators. If you find a post offensive, inappropriate or in violation of the terms and conditions of use, you report it. For the company's line developer to start a thread going off on a poster for an inappropriate comment instead of dealing with it though the moderation system is, IMO, inappropriate and unprofessional.

David -is- one of the moderators and this is how he chooses to moderate. To answer your question, you can report him by writing to Michelle Nephew, whose adress is all over the site, and then she can have a bit of a think which goes like this:

"Do I want to censure David for being too hard on a guy who came into the forums and criticised our stuff based on White Wolf material, or do I feel like watching my new twin girls sleep?"

I am not Michelle, but I can see where I'd spend my time.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@John Post

When people behave inappropriately or immaturely, I tend not to respond and simply add them to my ignore list. I don't have the time or desire to engage in conversations with someone who is not polite or acts like a fool. Bash can go on my ignore list with Direwolf and Abe.

Bash was rude one time and apologized immediately. I don't think that he should (yet) be classified with abe

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Timothy Ferguson

"Do I want to censure David for being too hard on a guy who came into the forums and criticized our stuff based on White Wolf material, or do I feel like watching my new twin girls sleep?"

I'm betting that going from no kids to twins she's more interested in sleeping herself,

[marklawford]

@LuciusT

@John Post

When people behave inappropriately or immaturely, I tend not to respond and simply add them to my ignore list. I don't have the time or desire to engage in conversations with someone who is not polite or acts like a fool.

Having a well populated Ignore list myself, I think it's a wonderful feature of these forums. I do find, however, that sometimes the people I'm ignoring have some good ideas that I miss if I don't occasionally look at their posts anyway.

By suppressing comments you don't like sometimes you miss out on new perspectives that might spur positive change.

And I think the point that several people have been trying to make is, those comments are welcomed. If there's something that bugs you about Ars fifth shout it out. But its comments along the line of "it sux" that are hard to stomach, mainly because they're not constructive and err on the side of abusive.

The trouble is that the internet is a very insulating medium; I don't know you and you don't know me. So it's easy to post comments that in all liklihood you wouldn't dream of saying in person in discussion over a beer or a coffee. There's little comeback if you go exercise your internet wit to belittle someone's efforts.

And I'm personally happy to take the criticism if and when it comes. But if someone is acting the jerk, I'm free to point it out. Nothing to do with being thin-skinned, I'm just not keen on jerks. And if that jerk doesn't like being called on it, well he/she can either stop acting the jerk or suck it up and move on.

Let's be clear, a company puts something out for sale and there are going to be good and bad comments. It will gel with some people and not with others. Usually, given the effort that goes into an Ars Magica product, the good outweighs the bad. This edition more than any other. Most of the community are supportive and enthusiastic. And most of us have our own bugbears about what we don't like. And this forum, I feel, is a great place to both enthuse and blow off steam. Just keep it polite. It's not hard.

[Erik_Dahl]

I'm cool if people want to tell me they think my work sucks. As long as they spell my name right!

[The_Fixer]

@LuciusT

Generally I consider this forum to be an hostile environment to be dealt with only when absolutely necessary.

I don't know what happened, but I am surprised, as I find that, even if there are heated arguments from time to time between different opinions, there is most of the time nothing so horrible IMO, and rather a lot of interesting discussions and people willing to help and give advice. Hell, I find myself rather distasteful from time to time, reacting very strongly to things I profundly disagree with, and think that some people are very patient in keeping up with me.

Have you considered that maybe (just an hypothesis, I wasn't there) you had came in all guns blazing, which elicited a violent response, and have stayed focused on that bad impression since?

@John Post

When people behave inappropriately or immaturely, I tend not to respond and simply add them to my ignore list. I don't have the time or desire to engage in conversations with someone who is not polite or acts like a fool. Bash can go on my ignore list with Direwolf and Abe.

IMO, you're being a little too quick there. I think that, if he hadn't before, there are chances he's understood the problem, with most people here hammering the point. Moreso, on other topics, he's having "normal" and interesting discussions with people.

[LuciusT]

@The Fixer

Have you considered that maybe (just an hypothesis, I wasn't there) you had came in all guns blazing, which elicited a violent response, and have stayed focused on that bad impression since?

Have you considered that that is a fairly condescending comment? (smiley indicating light-hearted response, just so it's not missed)

Seriously though, yes I have considered that. Unfortunately, my subsequent experiences on this forum haven't done much to overcome that first impression.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

This whole thread is doing more harm than good. I'm locking it, if David or Atlas want to unlock it they should feel free to do so. Anyone else pm me if you feel you really really have to add just one more thing,