Long range sun spells and expiry

If my magus (in iberia) casts a spell with sun duration and arcane connection range into Greece, when does it expire? When the sun sets in Greece or iberia? What if the positions are reversed? What about scottland/iberia(in summer vs winter)?

I think it depends some on how you rule about the locality of spells, AFAIK, the only raw we have about this is from HP(81) as a note in the rules text of arcane seal:
Note that the seal itself is a spell, and so can be dispelled. However, the seal is only present at the caster’s end of the Intangible Tunnel. There is nothing to dispel at the other end.

You could say that this implies that spells stick to the caster and so expire wrt their location, but imo this is a little weird for spells that don't effect both ends. For example if I cast preturnatural growth and shrinking to make my grog really big and then teleport myself to northern Scandinavia in the summer/winter, I think it's a bit odd if it doesn't expire at sunset for the grog and instead lasts for several days, similarly if I teleport myself first and then cast an arcane connection range version of growth and shrinking

I suppose this matters for dispelling too, for example if my magus was concentrating on a spell that created a light outside a house and then walks into the house and is effected by wind of mundane silence, does it counteract the light?


IMS the "energies" of a spell are dependent on Astrological conjunctions - mystically things change at the transition between Night and Day (and vice versa).
So the spell's Duration is determined by local Sun duration. Which can give altitude bonus on a mountain.


But local to whom? Also I'm not sure if I follow what you mean wrt getting a bonus on a mountain

If you are higher up, the horizon will be further down from your point of view, and thus the sun will set later/rise earlier for you than if you were at ground level.

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Oh totally

Local to where the effect of the spell is happening.

An intellego spell informing the caster has its main effect on the caster's locality.
Try a Sun duration Eyes of the Eagle from the top of the mountain. If the mountain top is still lit by day while the valley below has passed into night, the spell should still let you look into the valley below.

A Rego spell suspending a beaker on the other end of the AC would be local to the other end.

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If you think this to the end, there is no horizon down in most caves, and there are valleys where the sun never is seen in winter.

Do you argue, that D: Sun spells in caves do never expire? A clean explanation for (ArM5 p.112) "until the sun next rises or sets" is the astronomical one, not affected by geographical features like mountains, valleys and caves.

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The astronomical sunrise/sunset is probably the most practical rule to adopt.

Then again, the idea that in some secluded Alpine valley where the Sun never shines in winter a D:Sun will last for the whole "long night" is kind of cool!


If you are on the top of a mountain, and can actually see the sun rise above the horizon, it would be mighty strange if the sun showing itself would not end a spell with Sun duration.

If, on the other hand, you are deep down in a cave where you cannot see any horizon, let alone the sun, there it would be far more reasonable to use some astronomical definition of sunrise and sunset.

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The earlier of the 2 locations.


An there are days when it is so cloudy you cannot see sunrise/sunset. And yet Sun duration ends.

Each longitude/latitude and altitude can be computed for when the Sun crosses an unobstructed horizon. Of course the answer can become degenerate above the Arctic Circle.
I am presuming locations below sea level use a sea level altitude in their calculations.

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Tbh this seems like the most sensible to me, it's maybe a bit more work, but it's also more gameable

The problem with any of these question is the edge case rules lawyer.

"In a wizard war, I shall wait for my foe and cause a problem that will have him need to use a few 7 league stride. Dusk will fall in his original location and his parma will drop a minute or so before he expects it to. Mwahahaha."

So generally the earliest, except when it isn't. As SG I'd rule the parma would drop at local dusk, not the casters original location dusk.

This kind of thing has come up a few times, and my answer always is, magic is not science.


7 league stride is a momentary spell though? That shouldn't matter, or effect the parma(or any other spell) for that matter? Unless you're saying that the parma snapshots duration based on where it was originally cast which I agree sounds really annoying

Affect the Parma?
You are at a single place, there are no dual locations.

The only effect I can see is if you extend your Parma to your apprentice, which is within sight but would be hit by nighttime earlier. Then you would have a duality. That might effect a change of behavior.

Yes but a spell could possibly be, refer to the first op

Yep. But there is an example in LotN p,27ff box Guardians of Graveyards. The Father of Dread on p.28 there can control time in its Faerie realm and thereby "use cascading dawns to strip magical defenses from its enemies", including Parmae.

Such examples show, that any kind of effect expiry due to ending Duration should depend on the location of the effect, not of the current location of its caster - no matter whether that effect is caused by a spell, an enchanted device, a magical Ability or other kind of magic.
Its caster can in such cases have been already completely disintegrated, or have no longer any connection to the effect caused. Referring to their location - if there is one - is just a needless complication for determining effect expiry.


I think Fishy is saying that using teleportation or other transportation spells to cross the day/night boundary will have the same effect on existing Sun duration spells and effects (such as Parma) that staying in place and waiting for time to cause the day/night boundary to cross you.

I would agree.
Though a Mercere Portal is an interesting edge case. If one side is in Day and the other is in Night, then surely the Portal itself would be the Day/Night boundary and cause the ending of Sun duration effects.


Yes, those interpretations are annoying. I was trying to show a painfully annoying potential rules interpretation.

The best answer for the kind of scenario in my silly example, and the OP, is what the story guide decides. The moment one tries for consistency things fail.

Rules Lawyer: So I could keep 7 league striding faster than the sun moves, and literally have a sun duration spell/effect last over 24 hours.
SG: yes.
Rules Lawyer: Why is the destination most important for the parma or sun spell, but not for the intangible tunnel. Having a sun spell theoretically be able to last 24 hours doesn't bother you?
SG: I'm not bothered, it works best for the story.

There may be a playing group who like messing with durations. They would love tricking an enemy to move so far they are in a different enough time zone from when the sun spell/effect started that it fails before dusk. For those people, have fun.

The moment one gets really precise with spell duration ending, it opens up lots of questions. As other have said what about caves, mountains tops, if the magi is at the top of a lighthouse do they get a few bonus seconds?

I think the best answer is generally the one most people would think "that makes sense". The spell ending a bit before dusk because it was cast in a different time zone. Most people think that is off. Thinking about mountains, caves, etc, makes most people think dusk should really be about the rough area on Earth, ignoring height and depth.

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