Longevity Specialist Laboratory

And for the real cockroach stunt, you only have to be in the Lab half the year to get that bonus, so TWO magi could get the benefits............

It depends on what you mean by "for free". A magus can have a number of helpers no larger than his Leadership score. However, even if his Leadership score is 0 or 1, a magus can always be assisted by his familiar, if any, plus one other helper (e.g. his apprentice).

So, not only does this magus have time to make his lab give a +12 bonus to Longevity Rituals, he also has enough time to make a lab that gives a +20 bonus to Health? Even ignoring the fact that no sane SG is going to allow for that kind of bonuses, simply because it's unlikely that a player could come up with enough devices that are thematic to providing said bonuses, that's a huge investment of time and vis. When you stack that on top of his responsibilities to his covenant and perhaps his House, and the fact that he's probably selling Longevity Rituals, it becomes rather unlikely to find such a character.

Do it, I dare you. Make a character and play him actively where he does nothing but improve his lab, make items for his lab, sells longevity rituals for cash, while he also meets the demands the saga places upon him.

Your absurdity knows no bounds. Yes, it's very possible to do this, but you're now looking at a shared lab, which grants neither magus the rights of sanctum.

All of what you say is theoretically possible, allowable under the rules, but is extremely unlikely to ever happen in play. My corpus specialist might, eventually, perhaps, one day, if his luck holds out, have the time to invest in improving the Health attribute of his lab. After he trains an apprentice, binds a familiar, makes a talisman, improves his lab for Corpus and/or Longevity rituals or any of another 100 jobs that will pop up as the saga progresses.

We aren't talking about a single magus, we are talking about a project for an whole Covenant, remember? And a Covenant so close that the whole Covenant can be trusted to work together. At which point the numbers becomes quite reasonable and two magi swapping labs becomes quite possible. I know many enjoy their duels and Wizard's Wars, but some play for the sheer joy of the Art..........

For the more "Realistic" games, I have seen many here use their Apprentices as their "second character". For an Archmagus to make such a lab as a parting gift for his Apprentice seems quite possible to me. Assuming Lab Texts are traded measure for measure, and given that Archmagi are able to make a level 50 item in a season (in their specialty to be sure!), a +20 to Health is just a year of Item creation, and well within an average player's abilities. All that is tricky at this point is the concepts, what can you make that will give a bonus to Health? Magic shower? Runic Tablecloth of Perfect Meals?

I suppose you were, but such a covenant probably won't ever exist. It's perhaps an interesting thought exercise.

I have not seen as many people as you have (here) who use an apprentice as a second character. An Archmagus giving his apprentice 6 seasons of his time to build his lab and give items that provide health seems unlikely. And if you're throwing down items with 50th level effects, you're also going to introduce warping into the lab. So, yeah, again, all possible, but rather unlikely.

Meh, I have seen people in the real world do more for their children. And, of course, they get the benefits first :wink:.

And if we are talking "realistic", then the Redcaps have the time, desire, and resources to make such a Covenant. They can get the full benefit of a Longevity Ritual, and don't have to worry about Twilight...........

Meh. I've seen people do worse to their children than what a Tormenting Tytalus Master does. And when in my sags that have had apprentices, in every case, they've gone off on their own at the end of apprenticeship.

It's more likely that they would sponsor Original Research to have a Longevity Ritual be fully effective, and not half strength. What motivation does a character have to join this supposed covenant? You're kind of presuming that the ability to produce a high level Longevity Ritual is an end, whereas, in my experience in actual play with a corpus specialist, it's a means. I've seen players create characters who could whip out LR 20s, and in almost every case, that's all they were interested in doing, only to find out that such a character is dreadfully boring to play.

Aren't Living Conditions modifiers limited to +10? I thought there was a comment in HMRE (learned magicians section: p.94) to that effect. It's stated as a limit to their charm, but it also says "in no case may the total Living Conditions modifier exceed +10." I consider the case where there is no charm at all to be a case, and in that case it still can't exceed +10. It is, of course, quite a buried statement.

Yeah, that is really well buried. Consider the poor soul who doesn't have HMRE.

Ah, Longevity Rituals ARE fully effective if you have a Supernatural ability. Page 101 core Ars Magica. Given that the Redcaps know all about, and have, a Mystery Cult, I would imagine that everyone they want to live long has been Initiated if they didn't have one to start. As to motivation? There are over a thousand Mages in the Order, and the Redcaps know most of them. Finding a focused nut and offering him all the resources and Vis he needs would seem simple enough.........

Yes, Callen, that is deeply buried. Lacking context, I would say that applies to Natural Magicians, so that they do not overshadow Magi, who are, after all, the focus of the game. But I wouldn't fuss if that came up in a game I was in, and it went the other way. I would just want to know ahead of time :wink:.

So House Mercere forces Redcaps to initiate supernatural abilities, and those that don't are second class Redcaps?

As you reminded me, the context here is about a covenant. While there are over a thousand magi in the Order, not all are corpus specialists, let alone longevity specialists. Again, you're viewing th LR as an end, when it is clearly a means to an end.

Forced? I can't imagine there would be a need. Why wouldn't a Redcap want to know Nature Lore? Or Animal Ken?

Please. Living longer is very much an End, which is why there are, what? a half dozen paths to Immortality. People, in canon, are willing to give up their Souls, their Humanity for a chance to live longer. Since those paths are secret, I imagine quite a few magi are very, very interested in maximizing their LR, their Living conditions. You know, the public path to living longer, the one that doesn't mean leaving your humanity behind..........

When you have to bury wife, children, grand-children, great grand children, friends of the first, second then third generation, long life can sound like a curse for some.

Considering that mages are only monomaniac living solely for their Arts, thus willing to do anything to gain an extra ten, twenty, fifty years to complete their project is very narrow point of view.
Also, a lot of mages are Christian and achieving immortality is something that might go against their belief and faith - you have to give up your human soul for that, becoming a creature of another Realm.

There are many reason why people might be willing to extend a bit their life, but since there is many methods to achieve a form of Immortality, some mages would rather be famous for a unique feat that nobody will ever be able to match - Hermetic Breakthrough, amazing magical wonder, lifetime piece of art, political achievment, etc.

There are mages would absolutely want to become immortal, and several books propose ways to achieve it. And if it suits your saga, you can easily put in your setting, that considering the number of ways to achieve immortality, there might be a group of immortal mages controlling/trying to control/fighting each other for the control of the Order. However suggesting that it is given than each mages want to extend his life as much as he can is quite a strech.

As I recall, it handles some other situations nicely. It's possible to get extremely high Living Conditions Modifiers so that you can essentially grant to solid Longevity Ritual to a great many people via them, and Learned Magicians aren't the only ones who can pull it off. Even if it caps at +10, that's pretty darn good, but since a Longevity Ritual will stack with it and can reach beyond +10, this does stop the overshadowing of magi as you mention.

Minor quibble, each health point requires 20 levels of effects. 20 health points needs 400 levels of enchanted effects. This will take 8 seasons of your archmagus' time, not 4.

Ezechiel357, I'm not claiming this is a goal of every mage, just saying that it's a goal of enough magi that finding one to the the patron of should be pretty easy.

Brutus, my bad. I could have sworn that Health was a specialty, not a primary lab characteristic, but you are correct. Still well within possibility, I know people who have spent more time building their home in the real world.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Figurine magic one of the examples of a research goal for a Bonisagus?
In a Vanilla campaign it hasn't been invented yet.
Of course, in Brutus' campaign it might have been invented and taught, in which case I will be quiet.

Hi Ivgreen,

while Figurine Magic is in the Breakthrough examples section, it's stated several times that the Minor Virtue does exist, separate from any Breakthrough.


The point of that writeup is in illustrating the integration of the Virtue to Hermetic magic, so that Magi can learn it, can store a spell inside for the recipient (not just limited to a Minor general/Supernatural Virtue). And further, fully integrating it (so that Magi need no Craft to create them, they would be a category of item just under lesser enchantments).

Of course, YSMV.

I hadn't really looked at it, and it seems like an extremely strong Virtue.

It has been a while since I read that chapter of HoH:TL.

I acknowledge that it is possible to find a non-Hermetic hedge wizard who knows Figurine magic.
I am sort of surprised that a non-Hermetic would be able to create a Figurine that grants

As I would have expected Magic Theory is restricted to Hermetic magi and their close associates.

I am not saying it is impossible, just that a lot of time and effort needs to go into it beforehand before you can arrange to get someone that could create a Figurine with that Virtue.
The implication that getting a Figurine as the simplest, first step to increasing lab bonus sort of threw me.

The virtue Figurine Magic is available to Hermetic Magi, and it is already integrated into Hermetic Magic. The virtue itself states that opportunities exist to further integrate it, as well as giving some ideas about other breakthroughs that might be available.

As far as Magic Theory goes, any Minor General Virtue may be instilled into a Figurine.

So a Hermetic Magus who has Figurine Magic could very well instill the Minor General Virtue Puissant Ability (Magic Theory) into a figurine that is attuned to a magus who is attempting to boost his lab totals for longevity. The figurine imparts the Virtue's bonus to Magic Theory for the length of time the figurine is valid for (6 months for wax, 1 year for wood), so the lab totals would be increased by this as well.