Losing Mythic Europe

In the RPG market, having Ars Magica set in actual Medieval Europe separates it from a HUGE segment of the market. Some people want a new setting... But many people I've met are fine with medieval europe because I don't have to try and pitch a whole new setting and world at them. At least for the level I play at, which is "barely historically accurate at all."

That said, I think some support for an actual thought out separate setting with wizards of immense power actually integrated heavily into the setting would be super cool.

Another idea is to have the characters be Apprentices of the Founders. The Order has just been formed, how do you influence history? Maybe give some suggestions on directions the players can go.

So summed up I think Atlas should do 1 and seriously look at 2 & 3

1.) Continue support for vanilla ars in mythic europe 1220

2.) Support chronolgically different settings for the game, even if it's just a singe book, "OoH 767 - build the future", "OoH - the Schism War", "OoH the Renaissance" or even simply "OoH 888"

3.) a thought out alternate mythic europe with the supernatural changing the history all the way back to the roman empire.

4.) A properly thought out alternate setting that is sort of like Mythic Europe, but with insanely powered Magi factored into its history.

That's trivially obvious.

Ars Magica has a very inspired premise in four parts - refined over its versions:
(1) Most Gifted men are by their nature isolated in society.
(2) The Order of Hermes provides an alternate society for many of them.
(3) To keep this alternate society working, the Order refrained from remodeling the surrounding world - Mythic Europe.
(4) Only with this alternate society stabilized enough to protect its members from each other, the Order now can begin to decide how to influence Mythic Europe at large.

Doing away with some of (1) to (3), you can pick the Fantasy world of your choice and elaborate it on the map of Europe. Anything can have been modified according to your whim by a bunch of magical uebermenschen, or you can have your choice of multiple implosions instead. I recommend you write it up yourself - if only to find out that it has nothing to do with history.

Cheers

Good question.

I think ME should remain the default setting, if only because that's what make Ars really different from all those tolkien clones out there, but there should be options for variants.
There are some games that do just that. Have clearly labeled little boxes where you can adjust power levels, things like that ("If you think arts advance too fast, divide all study totals by 2, rounded down")

An option for fantasy games is already there, in a way: We've got the Faerie Realm. People, in 5th, can have an entire game set in the faerie realm, with orcs, elfs and everything.

In Lords and Gossamer and Shadows, we have these small pdf supplements (4-5 pages), worth a about 1-2€, describing a world in rough lines. We could have bigger ones for Ars (say, 10-20 pages), doing the same thing, with little boxes for setting adjustment. Or just one big book compiling these.
For exemple (and yes, I haven't thought much about this, this is a rough exemple :wink: ):

  • Black Company setting: Have most of the pages explain the world. Then, a few boxes on rules variants, like: the higher form bonus applies to aging rolls. Against non-magical attacks, you apply your form as a full soak bonus, but you still get the visual effect of wounds (cut, burned...). There are no books on the arts, you must practice or apply adventure XP. No parma magica. Blah blah blah
  • Middle Earth Setting: Same thing, but with rules variants describing a few race templates (V/F), how the ennemy uses the infernal powers, how some arts are prohibited (say, no CrIg spells over base 05, save those that create light), how magic must either be sung, invested or takes a lot of time.
    You get the idea.

I think very much the same. Thanks.

  1. All of these are good IMO, save maybe renaissance: As far as I understand it, this may ask a little too much for scientific laws that conflict with the Ars system. If I’m wrong, though, go for it!

3 and 4 are the same IMO, save that 3 is an uchrnony, and thus maybe harder to write.

I like Mythic Europe, but I'm not sure that 1220 is the best time period. To me it feels like the "big things" have happened. Constantinople fell in 1204. Robin Hood and the Third Crusade and King John and the Magna Carta and King Louis of England have all just happened. I presume that's why a previous edition had 1187 as its start date.

I'd pick 1050, and move the beginning date for the order as necessary. It gives you the Norman invasion of the Emirate of Sicily. It gives you the Saxons, Welsh and Norman kings. It gives you land that is no automatically owned by the king to build covenants on. It gives you proper Vikings. I mean, I can see there's a lot left to do in 1220 (Sicily! Seriously!), but 1050 would let you fix or break key points in history.

1197 a it happens. but yeah.

And I kind of agree. It is very late.

Actually, I want this more than fantasy setting books:
A series of books discussing how Mythic Europe changes over time, what to change to set you saga in a different periode.

It isn't all that hard to attribute events in real history to the work of magi, PCs or not. The Order also has it's own history, rife with conflict both internal and external. That conflict with other magical traditions or within the Order itself can also be used to explain why there isn't as much interference as there should be.

In the 11th century, the Order had the Schism and its aftermath to recover from. The Order shrank from something around its present size to about half, or slightly less during that time. Only in 1220 has the Order grown to be as large as it was before the Schism. That period of rebuilding can be used to explain why the Order hasn't been involved for the last 150ish years.

The idea for avoiding mundane affairs isn't so much as to avoid changing history as much as it is an effort to avoid becoming court wizards to nobles and also be accused of bringing ruin upon one's sodales. You can, so long as it doesn't harm another magus, interfere with mundanes all you like. But if you mind control a baron, who starts a war, whose army ultimately tears through a covenant on its way to the baron's enemy, well, you've got some 'splaining to do...

1197? Well, that's embarrassing. I wonder if I ever had that right? Was the Alps ten years early the whole time? 8)

I agree with Timothy, although I don't know if 1050 is the date I'd pick or not, but that's not the point. Mythic Europe's history mirrors actual history until the Order forms, at whatever date we pick, but before that point the founders alone don't have enough impact to make gross political, cultural, or social changes on a large scale. But then they unite, swap magic lore, and create true Hermetic wizards, men and women who have the magical ability to make larger, world-changing effects. Player characters are first or second generation magi, so that we can get the founders off stage (dead and/or missing) and allow the players to interact with mundane society as much as they wish. House Diedne isn't some awful past event, its a rival group of wizards. Forget all the history of the Order stuff, let the players create that as the saga unfolds. Houses can have plans - "House Tytalus plans to separate House Tremere from the Order so that they can destroy it, and might use these nefarious schemes" (whatever those are) - but the history of the Order of Hermes could be played out instead of listened to. So, pick an interesting period in medieval European history and back track x number of years to give the founders enough time to locate, train, and set loose a generation of two of wizards. Magic stays powerful and history stays accurate to your starting point because the founders were busy creating the Order. You do lose the history of the Order of Hermes, though.

As per this thread, however, I'd never let go of Mythic Europe for Ars Magica. I'd rather loose the Order of Hermes before losing Mythic Europe. I think it's a vital part of the game.

Matt Ryan

Cutting it down to a few 100s. Yes, that might seem like too few, if we keep the notion of the Order of Hermes as it is. Which is my point.

Say there are 200 magi in Europe. These are the people with a full-fledged Gift, powerful enough to be trained in Hermetic magic. There are many more practicioners of 'Hedge' magic, whose Gift was not powerful enough to be trained in Hermetic magic, nor powerful enough to be considered a threat. These are the hedge witches and wise men and whatnot that most of the mundane populace knows and have dealings with. They have heard of those powerful wizards living in that remote tower, but most never dream of approaching them.

Yes, that may seem like there will be fewer interaction between magi. But does it, really? It would mean that you would probably know about each of them, individually. It would mean that each specialist is probably unique or part of a very small clique. It means each House considers its members like a close family. Competition becomes much more intense and personal. And it also brings back the companions to the forefront, since with so few magi it would make sense to employ less-powerful subordinates to perform many tasks. A magus dying or disappearing would be considered a dire event worthy of investigation, rather than something one simply shrugs off.

From a player perspective, it might bring back the sense that you are indeed one of the few powerful practitioners of magic in history. A world-shaper or world-shaker, if you wish to be one. All without having to twist the history of the Order to explain how they wouldn't have totally changed mundane history.

Anyway, that's just an idea. As to what all of the advantages and disadvantages of such a universe would be, I haven't given the idea much thought, I'll admit. But it might be an avenue that a future edition might want to explore.

I, too, agree that Mythic Europe should continue to be the default setting.

That said - I would very much welcome a setting-book for an alternate setting. I think that, especially with the Gift, Ars Magica will actually work very well for a standard high-fantasy setting complete with a fallen evil-wizards empire, like Greyhawk. Its seasonal aspect can also work quite well with Birthright, with its year-long turns of strategic gameplay, but that's another kettle of fish.

That's a cool idea. Thanks for that.

While it takes 15 years to train an apprentice, magi also live a long time, and will probably train several in most cases. Plus there was the early 'join or die' recruitment techniques. Frankly the official numbers of magi seem low to me by an order or two of magnitude- I would say there should be at minimum 10,000 magi in the whole of Europe.

I think it's a great idea, and agree that fewer magi would increase magus-to-magus interactions instead of decreasing them. Resources, like vis, books on the Arts, and enchanted items would become more scarce because there are fewer producers, which would motivate PC magi to find as many NPC magi as they could. I've always thought it ridiculous that the movers and shakers of the Order, those that get written up in supplements, would bother with freshly created, just out of gauntlet PC magi. Fewer magi in the Order make ALL magi important.

Depends on how strenoush the training is, as well as how easy it is to find a Gifted youth. Under the notion that not all have a Gift strong enough to become a full hermetic magus, you would see more failed apprenticeships. This has the effect of making magi less interested in training one, for the time invested in the training may very well be lost if the apprentice's Gift ends up unsuitable. Makes for good stories as well. Such as an old magus being pressured into taking yet another apprentice, because all of his previous ones failed and his lineage risks becoming extinct.

from p. 106 "in many populations there is a youth...", the quick seasonal guide is a stress die plus perception of 12+, with failed apprentices being basically found on a botch (1 in every 100 rolls) where the apprentice should also be a youth, essentially between the ages of 7 and 14, which is 20% of the lifespan before aging rolls- so depending on other factors between 10% to 20% of the population would be in the age demographic. "A population" is rather vague, I could expect it could go up to 1,000 people, which means about 1% to 2% of the population would be acceptable apprentices. A few seasons searching, depending on your perception, should produce a viable apprentice, or worst case you may have to hire another mage to locate the apprentice ( InVi spells base 10 can search a population very quickly...)
With decent longevity rituals a magus could live a couple of centuries, which means 7 or 8 apprentices is not unreasonable...

Quoting the rulebook seems a bit irrelevant, since we are discussing how a future edition of the game might look like. Any of the current rules would be subject to change, aftet all.

But the main point is that Mythic Europe is, to me, more important to the concept of Ars than the Order of Hermes is.

Hi,

I suppose different opinions reign over which bovines are holy in AM.

I came across AM in the late 80s, in time for the second edition but missing the first edition (which I have never seen). For me, the essence of the game was "Play a Name Level wizard in real Europe with real European fantasy, social, economic and religious tropes." Thus, we have magi who can readily cast 3rd to 6th level magic user spells in their specialty (fireball, teleport, domination and so on) but have a much harder time healing (that's for clerics!) or casting wishes (out of scope for a human wizard, and the AM2 game mechanics did a great job of keeping level 70+ spells out of scope (longevity potions were much less effective and Art scores above 30 effectively impossible even if a character made it past 120yo), but great for stories involving genies, angels and demons). That Name Level magic user gets a tower -- remember those charts in the DMG? :slight_smile:/2 -- and lo, we get Mistridge, and hints about how Our Wizards in Our Tower might have to deal with Those Other Name Level Wizards in Their Tower (grr, Windgraven), or that 9th level Fighter in his keep (er, that knight or baron) or the cler- Church. And sure, magic users are the best, but in Real Fantasy Europe they don't just steamroll over those lesser characters, and the game provides good reasons why, indifferently enforced by game mechanics that serve better as roleplaying reminders (the Gift, the Dominion, limited benefits to Real Power from mundane interactions, that pesky Code...)

All of this was wrapped up in a SOTA (for the late 80s) game system, with an innovative freeform magic system.

The combat rules made spellcasting slow (fast casts only mattered for defense against magic), so grogs were more important. Most mind-effecting spells needed a range of Eye so you could 'see' the mind through the windows of the target; seeing a target's body didn't really make sense. Spellcasting guidelines were present to support handwaving. Faeries were like pornography -- if it feels like a faerie, it's a faerie.

Over the years, we have come to expect different things from our game rules, and our idea of what makes "real fantasy Europe" has changed.

So this post is not a hymn to AM2; I reread that book some months ago and was struck by all that was missing or not thought through. I think they got a lot right but I wouldn't want to go back.

On the other hand, I think the essence of "Play a Name Level Wizard with Cool Magic Powers in a vaguely historical Europe of Myth and Legend" is what makes the game.

Nerf the wizards, and you get Chivalry and Sorcery (which also makes a stab at Real Fantasy Europe). Ditch Europe too and get Harn or Warhammer FRP (both of which provide almost-Europes, kind of) or even Ironclaw. Only ditch Europe and get D&D, or Anima, or Palladium FRP, or Rolemaster, or....

Ken's Holy Bovines

  • It's Europe
  • The game enforces tropes that feel appropriate for a fantasy version of real Europe
  • You're a wizard, Harry
  • You're part of a society of wizards
  • Your relationships with non-wizards face challenges
  • Wizards are uber
  • Wizards are held in check mostly by social constraints and having better things to do
  • You are all too human

By the way, I like having Houses, and I like the number. Sure, I really like the idea of having separate lineages, but a bunch of Houses with good one-liners makes character creation easy. A dozen Houses that maybe are thirteen feels just right for medieval Europe: 12 tribes that are sort of 13, 12 apostles that are sort of 13, etc. An escape hatch House for players who really want to go their own way is essential. AM5 does a great job by giving every House a virtue.

Adding another overlay couldn't hurt: Maybe Harmonist, Wilderist, Quaesitor are similar to Hoplite. Come up with 7 outlooks, give each mandatory virtues and maybe flaws, and great. Not a sacred cow though.

d10? Great for continuity but hardly essential. These exact 15 Arts? The same. Botch prevalence?

Anyway,

Ken

I´m not so sure. At least, you need luck, too. Luck to avoid the "aging roll result 13: crisis". You have to roll for aging every year and every year the 13 is the constant risk, even for good longevity rituals. If you roll three or four of this 13s, "the outlook is grim" (where in RAW did I read this phrase?).

Further, losses of stamina and intelligence through aging are bad influences if you´re rolling for twilight.

In my experience, a magus that gets 160 years old, is very lucky. 7 or 8 apprentices? Perhaps, if you´re lucky, get one apprentice after the other and have nothing better to do than teaching... This ideal circumstances didn´t happen in my sagas so far.

Chiarina

Final Twilight is more likely than death. A magus of 120 hermetic years has 240ish warping points which is a warping score of 9. Any magical botch is likely to be his last.

There is a Tremere in the Thebes tribunal who has trained five or six apprentices, and is famous for this dedication and service to the Order. This is canon, and seems to set a nice bar which only a PC would ever exceed.

Three apprentices seems about the maximum for most magi in the Order. Not because they could not train more, but because they choose not to train more. Magi in the canonical Order of Hermes are basically selfish; training an apprentice has some advantages, sure, but in general it costs a lot more time than it saves.

I don't think ArM5 is like playing a Name Level Wizard. I think it's more like playing an Epic Level Wizard. And doing so in a world filled with low-level Fighters, that somehow ignores all the epic wizards walking within it - no rivers moved by magic, no mountains raised or razed, no cities destroyed, kingdoms cursed, armies of undead, flying castles....

Anyway - I agree playing Ars Magica in a D&D-like setting wouldn't quite be Ars Magica, and should not be the default option. But having a good supplement on how to do that anyway would be cool. :slight_smile:

Which is why he leaves adventuring to the young magi her just recruited. :slight_smile:

Seriously - I find the wiggle-space in the rules here troubling. Sure, a botch will send him to final twilight. But why would he botch? He will try to cast only mastered spells and use devices. Something unexpected might happen, but adventures chase PCs, not NPCs. I just don't see it. I don't see why NPCs would not, in general, manage to avoid final twilight for a long, long time - effectively for ever. I would much prefer to have magi go to final twilight when their Warping reaches 10 (or 9, whatever), so it's basically unavoidable.

And to make another rant-topic - wizard's twilight basically sucks. At high Warping you basically get flaws, and to top that you get vulnerable in combat and may disappear for decades (perhaps for the entire saga!) due to one bad die roll. You'd be better off having the Warping effects of some hedge traditions, or just the core book's effects. Not sure how to fix it - but it needs fixing.