Precisely. Aegis simply suppresses casting totals of spells inside. If the effect still penetrates after the reduction, its effect is as normal, whatever the range. However, even R: Personal needs to beat the Aegis reduction.
That's all I've been trying to say.
Skinchanger won't work because it uses a magical item; it is not an Essential Nature. Skinchanger items are generally assumed to have penetration: 0, unless otherwise specified, so it would fizzle under the suppression of the Aegis.
Sources of Skins used in Skinchanger virtues:
1.) Craft Magi bending Hermetic or Shapeshifting Virtues, penetration will usually be < 10, so hard to beat even minimum Aegis.
2.) Hermetic enchanted items
3.) Goetic shapeshifters can make Skinchangers by enslaving of a Bjornaer ancestor spirit. No idea what the penetration is for this, but I'd think it would follow Craft Magic rules or be an infernal effect. I think its covered in the book on the Rhine Tribunal which, sadly, I don't own.
Ways of the Forest, though a mystical effect, works because its Essential Nature. Ditto Greater Purifying Touch (generally) and ditto Greater Benedictions (especially if Divine).
Otherwise, everything must beat the Aegis penalty if cast within or beat the Aegis level if cast from without.
Wait, you are saying that if because of the Aegis reduction, my Formulaic R: Personal Spell Total is 5 points below the Spell Level... I will still succeed but with a fatigue level, I hope?
Assuming it is an enchanted device, it would be resisted and fizzle, yes. Even if learning to make it was a gift from faeries.
I think we also agree that Magical Supernatural Abilites are affected like Heatbeast if we accept that rule as general (whether RAW or House doesn't matter).
Now what is left undecided:
Personal Powers of Might creatures,
Supernatural Abilites from Realms other than Magical.
I think that supernatural abilities from other realms would work the same as supernatural abilities from the Magic realms. It just makes sense.
My personal feeling is that it makes no sense for supernatural powers of supernatural beings to not be suppressed, but there's leeway within the language to allow it at the SG's discretion.
The way I see it, the Aegis acts as a suppressor on all supernatural power in its purview: keeping powers out and weakening those within. Why supernatural powers of supernatural beings would be exempt in one narrow area, and suffer no ill effects from the Aegis is quite beyond me. It might be allowable mechanically, but I can't think of any way in which it fits into the framework of how the magic works.
My instinct is to treat it like Hermetic Magic (must overcome the penalty using penetration rules, if a might-point expenditure power) or like the Heartbeast supernatural ability (must beat an ease factor, if it uses a supernatural ability roll.)
The only exemption I'd make is for 0 point powers.
Whoa. I said this and you said I was wrong. You've been quite insistent about it. So you now agree with me? I just want to be clear.
Let's be specific about this: how do you think it has to beat the reduction? I've said as a spell it needs to be successful (which is 10 below the level for Hermetic stuff and other numbers for non-Hermetic stuff) but can have any penetration because it needn't penetrate, and as a power it simply works because it needn't penetrate. You said that is incorrect.
You've been saying the R:Personal spell "must penetrate the Aegis." This is not what Tugdual said. This is what Tudgual said:
Are you now agreeing with me? Or are you still saying R:Personal must penetrate the Aegis? This has been the point of disagreement, the reason you originally said I was wrong.
Exactly.
And, for powers, since there's NO casting total, it's instead the creature's penetration that's reduced (that's what I was quoting above). If the power doesn't need to penetrate, it works even if it has -10000 penetration.
Vulcano, let's state it again.
I'll requote and highlight the relevant passage:
So:
A magus outside the aegis wants to cast a CrIg light spell within the aegis
His penetration must beat the aegis level
A creature outside the aegis wants to cast a CrIg light spell within the aegis
Its penetration must beat the aegis level
A magus within the aegis wants to cast a CrIg light spell within the aegis
He must substract lvl/2 from his casting total.
If casting total < lvl - 10, he fails.
If casting total > lvl -11 but < lvl, he succeeds, but lose a fatigue.
If casting total > or equal to level, he succeeds.
A creature within the aegis wants to cast a CrIg light spell within the aegis
It has no casting total (or else, please, points me the page reference for "casting totals for powers" where it says that a creature can fail to activate its power when it fails its casting roll)
It must substract aegis/2 from its penetration. But, since the light spell is opposed by no MR, it succeeds.
A magus within the aegis wants to cast a R: Personna MuCo spell within the aegis
See 3 above. The penetration is irrelevant, since the range is personnal
A creature within the aegis wants to cast a R: Personna MuCo spell within the aegis
See 4 above. The penetration is irrelevant, since the range is personnal
If it had wanted to cast a R: Touch spell on grogs, it would have succeeded even with -1000 penetration, because grogs have no MR. But someone with a MR of, say, 0 would have been protected.
You're perfectly free to house rule it and say that the Aegis grants a MR of 0 to anyone and anything within its boundary. This would be a nice rule, but it ain't RAW. Same thing with saying R: Personnal spells and powers needing a positive penetration.
No, and this is what makes you confuse:
Within the aegis, you don't have to beat the reduction.
Your totals are lessened.
Casting totals (and thus penetration) for magi.
Penetration for creatures, since they don't have casting rolls to do.
But if the spell succeeds and doesn't need to penetrate, it works even with negative penetration (case 3 above). It's the same for a creature power.
What you're doing is adding a line that says "If a creature's power has a negative penetration, it fails". That's only true if cast on a target with MR, just like a spell cast by a magus.
Exactly.
And if a R: Personnal creature's power has Penetration -5 (or - 1000), it succeeds. Or else,vulcano needs to quote the paragraph where it says that spells and powers must always have a positive penetration to succeed, even when cast on something with no MR.
And as Lycanthropy is akin to a creature power:
It has no casting roll
Its penetration is reduced by Aegis/2 BUT is is range: Personnal so it bypasses parma and MR, and thus doesn't have to penetrate.
=> Lycanthropy works despite the aegis.
Vulcano: The fact that a specific ability (Heartbeast) is hampered by the Aegis and thus may not work doesn't in any way means that other powers (and, specifically, "creature powers" would be subject to the same rule. Or else, please, quote.
I just want to add that the indirect penetration of personal spell matters.
What if you turn yourself in a giant (r : pers) size +20, then try to crush a magus. Magical effect => resisted by the parma magica. The same in fact if you were giant outside the aegis and trying to come inside.
That is true. Good point. It's like other-range powers from beings, where the decrease in penetration only matters if the target has magic resistance. This won't change whether or not it works but can impact side effects (sometimes useful and intended side effects).
I say penetrate, you say overcome. Either way, they've got to beat the Aegis restriction. We've been running around one another in circles. It means the same thing.
Magic has to beat the Aegis. It means the same thing that you're saying: The Aegis suppresses magic. If the spell is still cast with the handicap, wunderbar. Otherwise, it fails.
To beat from without, you have to penetrate a magic resistance equal to the level of the Aegis. To beat from within, you have to cast with a handicap of 50% the level of the Aegis.
No matter what the range, you have to beat the Aegis's restrictions.
Tugdal,
I don't understand. Is your last sentence saying that Suprnatural Abilities are not resisted by the Aegis? Because that makes no sense.
If anyone believes that, in all of Mythic Europe, only Heartbeast and Hermetic Magic are restricted by the Aegis, they're welcome to the belief. Magic with penetration = 0 fails (for example, some Criamon Mystery Powers).
Supernatural Abilities, like Shapeshifter and Whistle Up the Wind are types of Magic with Casting Scores and Casting Totals of their own.
The Ex Miscellania chapter explains this is detail, and how Casting Totals of Supernatural Abilities compare to Casting Totals of Hermetic Magic.
Both are forms of Magic with Casting Totals, and so both are resisted or suppressed.
I am not certain if R: Per powers of Magic Creatures are resisted. It just makes sense to me that they would be.
Now that is interesting. This details how Supernatural Virtues work. They even use Shapeshifter and Entrancement as examples.
This uses an unqualified Casting Total and does not offer the same "Aegis magnitude" as Heartbeast does. Which means RAW gives a -20 to Ability roll instead of the -4 Heartbeast gets (for a level 40 Aegis). I am sure everyone would use the -4 even if RAW disagrees.
I share the feeling, but there's no RAW support for it.
No RAW for using Aegis to block supernatural abilities, nor specifically against. Its up to the SG to decide, really. Does it make sense to make familiars so powerful?
Also, I think Heartbeast is 3 + magnitude of spell, so level 40 Aegis (8th magnitude) would give and ease factor of 3 + 8 = 11, which may be tried once per round.
Also, I think that how the Aegis effects Supernatural abilities may depend on whether or not its an accelerated ability (i.e. advances as an Art)
If it is, then the Aegis will resist it as it does Hermetic Arts.
For standard Ability advancing Abilities (that rolls trippingly off the tongue...), using the Heartbeast template makes a lot of sense.
Note, however, that it leaves some powers, like Beast Summoning, wildly overpowered as Aegis-busing effects.
Perhaps adding the magnitude of the Aegis to any Ease Factor for such an ability would make sense?
At the moment the spell is said "the aegis protect a covenant as the parma protect a magus", and the moment they say "aegis doesn't require a perdo requisite even if this effect is incluced in the rego effect", it's clear for me. Stating that abilities wouldn't be blocked is like saying that abilities are not resisted per parma or affected by WoMS or Unravelling the abilities.
By the way, it's a major boon for accelerated abilities (evolve as arts but only suffer aegis/2 magnitude penalty), and a huge penalty for deficient arts (evolve as ability but suffer aegis level/2 penalty). I like that complexity level of the art/ability system.
I would like to ask in the future that you refrain from using "penetrate" to mean that. "Penetrate" has a very, very specific Ars Magica meaning, and in Ars Magica it absolutely does not mean the same thing as overcoming difficulties in casting. Even in the spell description itself "penetrate" is used in the Ars Magica way, not this way. Changing the definition of a well-understood term without letting anyone know causes immense confusion.
Thanks.
I don't follow how the Supernatural Abilities being affected by Aegis of the Hearth issue relates to familiars being so powerful. How are they connected?
I think he finds that powerful in that, those of a familiar's powers that don't need to penetrate always work into an aegis.
This is forgetting that:
By the RAW, if they don't beat the aegis, they can't enter without a token (Whether they need one or if one for their magus is enough is unclear to me), which makes the point moot.
It's exactly the same for items (They have no casting roll)
Yup, I think this confusion lies at the root of the problem: Theoretically speaking, a spell or power may very well have a negative penetration of infinite value, and still produce an effect, whereas spells whose casting failed by more than 10 simply... fail.
As far as I can tell, he seems to be under the idea that creature powers work under rules similar to spell in that they can fail if their penetration is negative enough, whatever the power.
So long as he doesn't make the distinction, he'll have trouble answering questions like these, which should be pretty clear cut: