I see where you are coming from, however I think the analogy doesn't fit. A group home, generally resources are scarce. That will trigger conflict.
A gifted child becoming an apprentice is not the same. The kind of people who used to pick on him, they may still look at him funny, but they aren't mean. The child is important to the magi, and they don't want the equivalent of the local lord wroth with them.
From most adults bemoaning the worthless difficult child, the apprentice now has value.
Please, don't let my argument stop you. There are plenty of Tytali in the Order. XD
But on a more serious tone:
Again, we are not talking about random magi meeting on the street (and I don't reccomend following a shady, unknown magus you just met in a dark alley who told you "come into my sanctum, I have a nice queen of vis with your name on it").
We are talking about either:
I'd expect your personal view on how this would affect your reputation to be of higher relevance.
For example, I know people who won't stay alone in a room with the opposite sex because they just don't think it's proper. Heck, I know a guy who, instead of sending a text message to my wife when he needed an information from her, would either ask me to ask her, or ask his wife to ask mine.
So I can see a society where magi refrain from assisting others in the lab because of the involved social stigma. If the troupe want's to lean hard on that, assisting other magi can even merit a negative reputation (Lab Whor... Assistant (Hermetic)). If the troupe want's to play in a mature Order which grew past that, just ignore the bit on p. 103. If it wants to play in an Order which encourages collaboration make it a reason for a positive reputation.
Agreed, generaly. Maybe a better comparison would be with how people who grew up or went through hard situations generally enjoy trading stories and knowing they are not alone, or how people who are struggling with serious health issues flock together for mutual support.
Or, for a lighter tone, to compare with how we just get a little happy when we are traveling and meet someone from the same country, city. Or meeting anyone who has the slightest connection with us, whatever it might be.
This isn't going to make you instant buddies, and you'd still get pissed if you suddenly found any of those people inside your house without your knowledge... But after receiving an invitation you won't generally think "oh, this person is looking for an excuse to hurt me" unless your personal experiences left you with a deeply cynical view of the world.
If you are a magus and that's your case, you probably don't even live in a covenant.
I was not trying to say they were the same, but rather that the alternative example of gamers finding each other is not the same either, using a counterexample of how the principle does not always apply. As I said further down I believe the biggest influence will be the paren's attitude. Which is probably far more trusting amongst Jerbiton, for example, than it is amongst Verditious,
It is, obviously, difficult to understand a society from so long ago, and one based on stuff (like magic or the Gift) we have no experience with. But!
Instead of group of nerdy kids playing rpgs... think of a kid who's grown among the street gangs of some third world city. Stealing, pushing drugs... and getting beaten and abused. Because, you know, a Gifted kid is treated like that before getting apprenticed. Once he grows up, he becomes the understudy of a really important figure (his pater) in the local drug cartel (the Order, including grogs and servants) - the one person in his life that he has a half-decent relationship with (maybe...). No more petty stealing and such, though of course, almost everyone else he interacts with keeps hating him, and even if they bow obsequiously, he knows that they'd just as soon see him dead - if anything, the fact that he now is undeservedly at the top makes their envy only worse. Eventually, he becomes an important figure of the drug cartel himself, powerful and feared, after a difficult pass-or-die test (his gauntlet). He finds the other top players decent people, though of course might makes right (Certamen) and now and then a feud starts up that ends with one party dead or worse (Wizard War) ... and if too much hell breaks loose, everyone involved is likely to get killed by the rest of the cartel, whose one law is essentially "stir up trouble and you're dead" (the Oath).
Now, one of these other deadly drug lords invites our hero for business to his own fortified citadel, where he's literally the master of life and death. You are saying that our hero feels safe not out of a sense that the other party knows better than stirring up trouble, but because that drug lord is nice and civil? Meh, I find that unconvincing. Maybe those pretentious snobs in Thebes... but in Normandy? Hibernia? Provence? Iberia? Transylvania? The Rhine?
More fundamentally what the setting describes is that if you do go to this fortified citadel (probably more like a mansion than a citadel, but) then others in the "cartel" will assume you are kissing the ring (or whatever teh appropriate metaphor is) of the person whose facility you spent time working in.
I think we have a different understanding regarding what the average reaction of people to the Gift is...
...and about what the Order is and how it operates.
Yeah, that seems more like the reaction to the Blatant Gift. For the 'normal' Gift, you're treated as untrustworthy and/or creepy. There's definitely some social ostracism, but people in their social circles will also generally become acclimatized to their Gift over time.
So the lifetime of a Gifted person is probably normal until their Gift manifests. Then it goes downhill for a while, but they'll probably bounce back if removed to a somewhat accommodating environment (apprenticeship). There are examples in various ArsM books of Gifted people who manage to live relatively normal lives despite not being in the Order. They're never 'popular' in their community, but they are integrated.
I think saying that someone with the ("normal") Gift is treated as just "untrustworthy and/or creepy" is an understatement. The Gifted is treated as having a "well-established reputation of dishonesty and unreliability, and undeserved privilege of whatever sort is most important to" whomever he is interactiving with.
And it's not just "I heard this person is untrustworthy, I should probably be careful". No, it's a "strong emotional reaction", visceral mistrust and envy. Think of the person you despise most; that's the Gift. Think of how Iago views Othello. Think how a wealthy black man is seen by his KKK-affiliated white housemaid. Social interaction if you are GIfted is explicitly "very difficult". I mean, even puppies hate you.
So, you are a new apprentice at a Covenant? What will the cook think of you? That you are a slimy treacherous bastard, likely the one causing every mishap in the kitchen out of sheer spite, Even the cat seems to know that ... as if you enjoyed torturing it when no-one is around... What will the turb captain think? That you are an arrogant, dumb little bastard, so full of yourself that in a decade or so you'll be commanding or mindbending him and the turb to their death on a whim. If only you could have an accident...
Of course, over time, they'll get used to you. But that will take time ... and familiarity, and if you are Gifted people shun you as much as possible. And virtually every new person you meet will treat you like that. Imagine an adolescent boy who's treated like that by every girl he might be interested in... and yet has the power to bend her will. Dark stuff, huh? This is almost certain to breed a strong level of mistrust in a magus towards anyone else... plus, you know, the Schism war, the corruption of the Tytalus, the Tremere open goal to rule the world, the n Wizard Wars in which people you regularly deal with have assassinated people you used to deal with....
The problem I have, is it's presented as the majority of the order have huge trust issues with other magi. I appreciate the trust issues with other people, because as mentioned, the starting point of interactions with any non Parma individual, is fear and mistrust of the gifted individual.
The question is, why can't a significant subsection of the order have the ability to compartmentalise and differentiate the previous poor treatment by humanity, to the expected behaviour by magi. Most magi have high intelligences. All magi see magical effects. They know on an intellectual level the Gift magically makes them socially toxic to people. They know on an intellectual level they are Not socially toxic to other magi.
I appreciate sometimes the emotional damage done is too deep. In the real world we have people with PTSD, anxiety disorders, etc as the emotional damage is deep enough and challenging enough to recover from, to have a clinical diagnosis. At the same time, there are a significant amount of people with childhood trauma who still have a generally optimistic view of humanity.
Also, magi outlive most mundanes. An elder magi has spent most of their time around magi with Parma. Most magi are apprenticed young. Are we overplaying the impact of the social ostracisation the Gift does for a few years on a person with a lifespan likely over a century?
Note that this matches setting stuff like "most magi would be wary entering another's Sanctum, even if invited in". It matches the Oath: I mean, magi literally swear they'll never kill or deprive of magical power or spy upon their sodales. Note that most societies have laws, but few force their member to actually swear to uphold them, particularly "basic" ones like "I won't kill or cripple my fellows from now on, ok, pfffff, goodbye freedom of youth."
And, you know, the Order is not like our workplace or neighborhood (at least not like mine!). It's socially acceptable to bully anyone who's weaker (Certamen). And it's socially acceptable to kill anyone just because you don't like him, as long as the proper form is maintained with Hermetic magi (Wizard War). Of course, taking it to excess is frowned upon and can get you Marched, but still...
Maybe? Maybe they know that most people with the Gift really are nasty, treacherous bastards, as anyone (even animals) can easily sense; but a side effect of the Parma is to dull (like a drug or PeMe effect) this sensible sense - which is sometimes useful to get stuff done. I mean, when you take a painkiller, do you really think "pain is just an illusion, this medicine will shatter it"? Or rather "pain is all too real, this medicine will make me oblivious to it"?
I don't know. I think that the vast majority of people a "typical" elder magus has spent time with are unGifted folks. Grogs, servants, specialists. Redcaps! When he travels, every person (and puppy!) he encounters treats him horribly, or would if he dared. And again, I think such a magus realizes fully that's how things really are, and parma is just a painkiller.
Now, I completely agree that some magi may be nice and optimistic and stuff, and not just those with the Gentle Gift. Many Spring covenants forge in the crucible of survival strong bonds of friendship between their young magi. But to assume unquestioningly that magi have the same level of trust we have for each other in modern, first-world society - the trust that your colleague will only figuratively stab you in the back - is at a minimum not a given, in my view.
There is such a segment, they call themselves Tremere. Jerbiton also tend to be this way but they are most Gently Gifted so that might be cheating. Tytalus most definitely cannot trust other magi, they can't even trust their own parens.
It is also very strongly in the YSMV territory.
Well, no. The usual response to the ordinary Gift is suspicion, irritation, annoyance and dislike, not hate.
"Hate" is a concise (and admittedly a bit superficial) way to say something that is much stronger than what I get reading that sentence, and that I specifically quoted from the Core book earlier on:
The Gift engenders a strong emotional reaction, tinged by extreme mistrust and envy, that makes social interaction very difficult. The reaction's "colour" is what the Gifted would receive with a well-established reputation of dishonesty, and undeserved privilege of whatever sort is most important to the other party. This is not just simple "annoyance", or "suspicion":
For my saga, the description I use:
My parents' exes are all pretty nice people, actually!
Hmm, from the description in the corebook, it seems more like:
Gentle Gift: the boyfriend of an acquaintance.
"Normal" Gift: the guy who's trying to steal away from you your love, and plans to cheat on her.
Blatant Gift: the guy who did steal away from you your greatest love, and beats her every day.
Remember, you don't just think "hmm, this may be a rotten apple". You think "this is a rotten apple".
See, if I'm reading this right, what you are saying is that "hate" is indeed stronger than what the standard reaction to the Gift entails?
Because so far, what you have described as the standard reaction to the Gift is pure, visceral and unbridled hate. One that makes you jump to murderous thoughts, and while you can't act on those, to be as irrational and obnoxious as possible.
I get that you don't want to downplay the Gift, but I you are strongly overplaying it. Just compare your texts with the supposed reaction to the Blatant Gift:
Treat the Blatantly Gifted character as having a well-established reputation for dishonesty and treachery of a dangerous kind, as well as for the possession of ill-gotten gains. People interacting with a Blatantly Gifted maga are extremely wary and rather hostile. Animals treat her as a threat to be driven away from their territory.
Actually, I have just copied the text from ArM5, p.75 
No no, read everything on your posts. Including the parts where the cook and the turb captain hate to the guts the little drug-lord apprentice who was abused by everyone he knew while he lived on the streets (because clearly such a foul creature was rejected by it's parents).
Or, again, just compare your description of the reaction to the Gift to the supposed reaction to the blatant Gift. I dare say yours is harsher, if just by a hair.
Let me get this straight. I think that a lot of people who've posted here (I acknowledge I am a tiny minority) fail to incorporate in their descriptions a few important points of the "normal" Gift that are clearly spelled out on ArM5 p.75 (I am bolding the text I am quoting verbatim).
The first is that the Gift creates a strong emotional reaction. If someone looks "creepy", or I am "mistrustful", that's not a strong emotion, at least as far as I read it. In fact, emotions generated by the Gift are sufficiently strong that in general social interactions are very difficult for the Gifted. If I find you annoying or creepy, social interaction might be a little more difficult or a bit awkward. It is not very difficult.
Second, this strong emotion is not just about mistrust, it's also about envy: the GIfted is treated as if he had undeserved privilege of whatever sort is most important to those interacting with him. That's a fertile ground for hate to flourish. Compare the description I gave for the reaction of the turb captain to the apprentice, with that of a lord who acts as if he believes [a] maga is a treacherous vassal who retains her position through bribery or similar. Does the latter look much weaker? The one difference is that the lord might simply avod the maga, but the turb captain knows that the apprentice will get to command him in a decade or two, which makes the tension stronger. I wrote that passage thinking: what, in the mind of a military officer, is the quintessence of "dishonesty ... and undeserved privilege of the type most imporant to him"? Someone arrogant and incompetent who treats his unit as expendable things, was my answer, and that's how I described his reaction. Overdone? I don't think so.
Third, and I really want to stress this. Those who interact with a Gifted do not suspect he's rotten. They know he's rotten. They do not act as if he reminds them of someone rotten. They act as if they fully believe he is rotten, as if he had a well-established reputation for being rotten. In other words, because of the strong emotional reaction, they won't give him the benefit of doubt.
Anyway, this has strayed far from the thread's subject for far too many posts. My bad, mostly, so I'll stop here posting about the effects of the Gift. I think I've made my view, and the text I think supports it, abundantly clear. If you want to discuss it further, feel free to send me a message or open another thread with the "right" subject.
Except, the Turb Captain is aware of the effect of the Gift, if he's been around magi for several years already, and will kmow how to recognize it's effect on him. So he's not gonna act on it with regards to the apprentice.