You're right that it's not impossibly hard to dispel (depending on the aegis' level), but I wouldn't go to the point of saying it is trivial, since to dispel, you not only have to meet the regular dispel guidelines, that dispel also has to have enough penetration to avoid being stopped by the aegis as a foreign spell in the first place. This makes it comparatively almost twice as hard to dispel as to cast at any given skill level, even with specialized dispel for vim. Getting +50 penetration on a level 40 perdo vim effect at voice range to get through a level 50 aegis isn't exactly trivial spellcasting, while the higher level aegis is comparatively easier to achieve by bonuses to ritual casting activity from skills, and penetration from wizard's vigil spells, while a solo wizard on a war usually can't count on sodales for wizard's communion. If we're at the step of covenant on covenant warfare where the attacker can depend on unopposed group spellcasting... well, again, this isn't a trivial event. We're talking about a borderline archmagi being able to overtake the aegis of a Rego Vim magi barely of master level. A master of perdo vim would barely, on his own, be able to take on the aegis cast by a magus a few years out of gauntlet. Enchantments with very high lab total dedicated to penetration can help, for sure, but it's still comparatively easier to put a strong aegis in place than to get rid of it.
Normally fights within the Order are in the context of a Wizard's War, which are rarely declared on an entire covenant. Dispelling a covenant's aegis to get to your wizard's legal enemy would likely be prosecuted as a minor crime for damage to a foreign covenant, and possibly as a major crime for deprivation of power due to forcing the covenant to waste its vis on renewing their aegis, unless the attacker took proactive steps to mitigate any damage he did such as paying for the vis of the new aegis, or attacking on the eve of the aegis's renewal, or something along those lines that would muddy the case. Not to mention the risk of being held responsible for accidental damage, such as unleashing a creature within the aegis that currently can't release itself, or allowing supernatural creatures hostile to that covenant to enter their aegis as a result of your action.
It is trivial but hardly discreet. While in a full on covenant on covenant wizard's war it is fine to destroy the aegis like the walls of Jericho, simply being shielded from its effects while the hosts are unsure is something else.
Cast your Unravelling from outside the Aegis. Now it doesn't need penetration.
I don't disagree, but does members of your troupe with this inclination remember that the Aegis is a ritual and thus must be level 20+? That seems a lot of levels to spend for a newly Gauntleted magus.
Not to mention having to put 40+ XP in ReVi, because starting spells are limited to Te+Fo+Int+MT (a fairly typical Int +2, MT 3 starting magus needs ReVi 12 to start with Aegis).
Obviously, this is less of a disadvantage if you were planning to put XP in those arts anyway.
It is, but it is also best done at chargen, since spending a season practicing the spell is a 5xp season, which is not great. We discussed the Aegis at the start of the campaign and agreed to play it as not needing to penetrate (along with a gentlemen's agreement not to abuse invisibility).
In my saga, of the three players, one was a Re/Co necromancer and another was a Cr/In/Vi machine, so it was totally feasible.Both of them could have learned it at chargen, though obviously, at the cost of not knowing a more oft-applicable level 20 spell.
If you are outside of the Aegis, you are casting the Unravelling toward the Aegis. This requires the Unravelling to penetrate the Aegis resistance or it fizzles out.
In general it is easier to cast from within the Aegis since this only subtracts half its level from the Casting Total (and the total can be as low as -10) rather than requiring excess Casting Total (+ Penetration bonuses) equal to its level+1. The only ways it would be easier from outside the Aegis is from someone with a high penetration bonus casting at a low level Aegis or against an Aegis with lots of Size.
Aegis 20, Unravelling 10: From outside you need CT (including Penetration ability/bonus) of 31, while inside it you need CT (w/o Penetration) of 10.
Aegis 30, Unravelling 20: From outside you need CT (including Penetration ability/bonus) of 51, while inside it you need CT (w/o Penetration) of 25.
Aegis 40, Unravelling 30: From outside you need CT (including Penetration ability/bonus) of 71, while inside it you need CT (w/o Penetration) of 40.
Aegis 50, Unravelling 40: From outside you need CT (including Penetration ability/bonus) of 91, while inside it you need CT (w/o Penetration) of 55.
Aegis 60, Unravelling 50: From outside you need CT (including Penetration ability/bonus) of 111, while inside it you need CT (w/o Penetration) of 70.
Note that the CT required for inside the Aegis in these calculations would result in a -10 and require spending a point of Fatigue.
The Unraveling (& Penetration if cast from outside) Spell Mastery on the Unravelling spell would lower the required CT, while Rebuttal Spell Mastery on the Aegis would raise the required CT.
EDIT: As an additional example, the Covenant in my Saga has a level 65 Aegis with Size +2 (so the Aegis effects are level 55) cast with Spell Mastery 5 (Rebuttal & Penetration). This results in the effective level of the Aegis being 65 - 10 (Size +2) + 15 (Rebuttal) = 70. Since some of the other Magi take part in the casting through Wizard's Vigil the Penetration Total of the Aegis is huge (potentially over 300, though we normally shoot for 100+). It requires a Penetration total of 71 for exterior spells and applies a -35 penalty for interior spells.
Aegis 65 (effect level 70), Unravelling 55: From outside you need CT (including Penetration ability/bonus) of 126, while inside it you need CT (w/o Penetration) of 80.
Even with Rebuttal boosting the effect level, the points put into Size make it notably easier to dispel.
I'd like to hear from @Tellus on the "yes" or "no" matter. He is the sharpest spoon in my Troupe, and he spots things - possible flaws or exploits - that no one else does. Also, I'm not sure I'll take the time to read all arguments in this discussion, nor understand them.
Everyone, even the sharpest spoon, makes mistakes. That is the advantage of peer review such as found on this forum. It would be to your advantage to at least skim over everything even if you do not fully understand them.
ezzelino for example has a tendency to rub me the wrong way to the point he sets off my PTSD from the way he replies to my posts and I have to ignore him to avoid becoming a mass of screaming profanity. However he also often has some very insightful views and comments (even the ones I disagree with). I eventually do read all of them after I calm down.
Oh I will read it all. It's a thing we need to understand and agree upon in our saga. I'm just trying to be prepared for game day this coming Saturday.
And yes, sometimes discussions become long-winded, and occasionally the tone is less than optimal,
I'm inclined to go with 'no' (meaning: The Aegis does not need to penetrate to affect casting totals), specifically to empower the Aegis and make it special. There are valid arguments why the answer would be 'yes'. Some of them very persuasive. My aesthetics prefer a 'no' though.
I was trying to keep a low profile on this one. But yeah.
I'll take that as a compliment.
Agreed.
I know exactly what you mean. Not necessarily with @ezzelino but there are a few other people here that rub me the wrong way. I try not to let it show.
I think that there are a few points that should be clarified before judging the effects of the Aegis on "foreign" caster inside it. Without seeing the whole picture, it's hard to rule on a specific point in terms of game balance - and also aesthetics, because coherence is part of aesthetics. I am curious if, e.g. @Tellus , @InfinityzeN , @Christian_Andersen , @Cyborg , @Samsaptaka@callen and others who've been active in the thread recently have a consensus on the answers to these questions:
How does the Aegis work on effects produced by "foreign" magic items internal to the Aegis? We only read that they are "resisted". Does it mean that they need to penetrate the Aegis or fizzle out? Or do they work as creature powers, working automatically but seeing the penetration reduced by half the Level of the Aegis? In the latter case, they (and magi like Verditius) enjoy a vast advantage in dealing with an hostile Aegis.
How does the Aegis work on effects produced neither by devices, nor by creatures of might, nor without a casting total? E.g. a skinchanger turning into a crow, or a magus using his Mythic Blood power? By the RAW they are not penalized at all if initiated within the Aegis.
How does the Aegis work on extant spells affecting MR-protected targets entering it? E.g. must an Aegis penetrate the parma of an invisible magus, before it can challenge the invisibility to penetrate the Aegis level or fizzle out? (For aesthetic reasons, this is a resounding, yes, it must penetrate the parma for me, particularly since it must penetrate the MR of Might-y creatures to stop them)
As 3 above, but for other effects. Say, the Longevity Ritual, or the cords of a familiar.
The invasive spell must Penetrate the level of the Aegis, so the Aegis' Penetration is irelevant?
That is odd, considering the guideline box for MuVi rules, that casting "metamagic" on another magus' spells, needs to have the MuVi Penetration beat the Penetration of the targeted spell.
I know one is Muto and the other Rego, and that one defies Hermetic structre and the other fits into it (as well as Vim does). But still.
OTOH all Rego and perdo Vim spells/guidelines I remember use the level of the effect as the difficulty to deflect/suppress/dispell - so that's in tune with Aegis of the Hearth. And the Muto Vi guidelines does this as well - it's only this phrasing in the text block explainng the guidelines which differs.
The Aegis Penetration is only relevant on keeping out beings of Might (and if you subscribe to the currently non-RAW view that it must penetrate for any other effects).
The Aegis is a Unique snowflake in Hermetic Magic, derived from the Parma Magica, that does not match or draw on any of the other guidelines. Because of that "unique snowflake" nature it requires a Major OR Breakthrough for any changes to it outside of level or addition of Size.
While other guidelines might appear similar in mechanics, they are different in semantics.
I may be wrong, but I believe that the RAW implies that the Aegis must penetrate a being's MR to affect any supernatural effects "hanging" on that being, when that being enters the Aegis.
E.g. if a supernatural creature manages to enter the Aegis, because - say - the Aegis fails to penetrate its MR, it does not happen automatically that it is stripped of wards, disguises, and so on with low penetration (note that "personal" stuff tends to have low penetration).
I do not thing that "sure, you enter, but lose all your illusionary clothes" is either RAW, or a desirable outcome, in fact.
These are off-the-cuffs replies. There may be problems I have missed.
That 'Or' that I've emphasized above, is that an 'OR' or an 'XOR'? (to use programmer's terms).
Because I don't see why it would have to be one or the other. I would in fact levy both effects.
Oddly enough this appears to be a R: Personal effect. No penetration required. I realize that HoH: MC, p. 22, box insert "Ringing the Changes" compares it to an invested item, but that doesn't make sense to me.
I personally dislike Skinchanger and would like it to be cleaned up for Penetration etc.
Excuse me? Mythic Power uses Penetration, which I would affect as the native powers of a being associated with a Realm of Power.
Please allow me to disagree. That's exactly the sort of thing the Aegis exists to limit.
My reply would be a 'no' without hesitation.
This is where things get complicated. Because there isn't really any reason why those effects would not be resisted by the Aegis, but I don't think they should be.
I would however STRONGLY insist that the Aegis doesn't really form precedent for any other effects, Wards or otherwise. It is already explicitly stated to break the rules and be an anomaly in Hermetic context. I would be fine with making the Aegis an anomaly such that it didn't need to penetrate at all!
As long as a note was added to make sure that it was clear that the Aegis was the exception, not the rule.
This is where I'm not happy with the switch from "constant" being constant to constant being repeated effects firing off, though it does solve the item-left-behind issue. I play with the old and new available.
But without that house rule, the effect should have to penetrate as with other effects. That means even "constant" items will shut down when brought in. However, they'll still fire off at reduced penetration inside, and they may not need any penetration to function. So many items will work just find when fired off inside AotH.
As to the actual penalty, there is no penetrating from inside. As I look at AotH more like cutting off fluid vis or Aura and so not needing to penetrate for this, I apply the same penalty as for creature penetration.
Skinchanger is explicitly produced by an item and so is most definitely resisted by AotH in RAW. Its penetration doesn't tend to matter, though, so a lower penetration doesn't do much. Same thing with many creatures' Personal powers.
Mythic Blood, however, isn't covered. Of course, neither is Heartbeast in the core rules. Since Heartbeast is affected in RAW, I would say Mythic Blood is as well, reducing its penetration, which may not matter.
I'm torn on this. I can give stupid examples in either direction. One example would be a gorgon. Should the gorgon really lose its hair/eyes when entering because the power lacks sufficient penetration? (This is where I would like a Minor Virtue that makes a Power natural.) An example the other way would be a stone carried in a pouch with a levitation effect on it as well as a delayed fireball effect; the magus walks through the AotH boundary and then floats the stone to the covenant and lets it explode instead of floating it in from just outside the AotH boundary.
These are truly constant rather than twice-a-day-pretending-to-be-constant effects. I have them waiver as described in Wind of Mundane Silence but continue since they're essentially restored instantly.
The much trickier question is when one of the magus/Familiar is inside and one is outside and an effect is triggered. Does this count as coming from outside the AotH or from inside it?
I think this is so you can't cast a low-level spell with high penetration and then boost it to a very powerful spell with MuVi that has negative penetration while still getting to keep the original attack's penetration, for example.