Magic Resistance- whats it cover?

Yeah, my SG tries to stick to the "spirit" as well as the letter of the rules - makes it easier to be consistant.

As for the pill with a delayed effect....
You may have to lower your parma to take it. Otherwise I can't see a problem with it. You ingest a magical item, whilst it is in your body it triggers, the magic effects you.

Of course an item which set you on fire etc. goes out of your parma first.
Any spell in the item would have to be range "touch".

To dispel the thoughts of touching somebody "through" their Parma, maybe you should think of it like an Aegis of the Hearth, its effects permiate through you in addition to having a shield effect that stuff "bounces" off of.

Excepting of course, that Aegis is a spell, and Parma both mechanically speaking and I think functionally as well, is not.

As for clothes being an Arc conncetion or not. I suspect unless the Magi in question is a nudist by nature, and wears clothes only periodically as a nice conveicnec for his fellows, then he or she has some intrinsic "Link" with what he or she is wearing at the time. Though because of the nature of that link. it's exceptionally fleeting, lasting only as long as the clothes last on thier form. Just like Hair as a connection only lasts for a little while, until some significant change occurs to make it unlike the source from which it comes.

The "Favorite Hat" thing is in a differnt category because once away from the Magi, it still has some level of importance ot said Magi. But the clothes maintain their import only as long as they remain in use, and a necassatiy to the Magi.

And skin to skin contact, please, please don't try to tell me that a persons skin is not something instrinsic and personal in connection to said person, particualry while it's still attached....

If you go as far as to get that close to another, and are willing to forgoe the somantic natrure of spell casting(no gestures) I'd be more than happy to give you a shot at by passing Parma if not ONLY on the basis of you beiong so close to the Parma itself(indeed passing it altogether).

Anyone who wants to be desperate enough to get that close, risking not only the Magi in questions retlaiaton should they aggressoer act to slow, but that of any freinds of the to be affected Magi, or his Shield Grogs, then they deserve every opportunity they gets for having that much guts.

THe one inescapable thing one has to come to the relaization of is this is a shield in question. It's a membrane aorund the Magi. IF it can be breached, either phsycially and non-magically. or by a spell having enough oomph to push through it. then it is still a barrier. But barriers don;t go all the way through the subject they are protecting, they only stop things from reavching what they are protecting.

I suepect that the issue with personal range magic, is easily solved when or if one takes the idea that the "gift" does not mean one generates power from inside oneself, but allows one to use and manipulate magical energy. The very act of casting a spell brings, and molds the magical power to be expended to the caster. Which indicates in all likely hood an outside source of the power, That energy someone is trying to manipulate has to come across the Parma as well and be exepended into the body in a personal spell, where as normally the power comes to the magi, he or she manipulates it, and expands it outwards, never needing to actuaully come in any kind of direct physical contact with the energy itself.

BTW as a ST, I would rule the "Delayed effect": inherent in a maigc item is a magical delay in and of itself... Just because the magic is not active, does not mean the energy is not there. Even if it is a bit... latent.

Of course we are opening a differnt can of worms there entirely I suppose.

I find the concept of touching the bare flesh of a magus ,
or the clothes he is wearing that day ,
less than appealing as an Arcane Connection.
(goes counter to all that Lab Work of finding and fixing an Arcane Connection)

How long do these clothes have to be worn to be considered an Arcane Connection?
Magi can presumably afford more than one set of clothes to wear ,
to avoid this problem.
They regularly cast a "Breaking the Arcane Connection" spell on every single item they own.

As for the skin option , all magi learn the "False skin of Arcane Connection" spell.
(Some kind of Creo or Rego Vim possibly)
Any spell that targets the magus at touch range being considered Arcane Connection ,
then targets this spell instead.
In fact the magus could leave an item with the "misdirect" to any arcane connection (not of his own making) in his lab.
He merely has an arcane connection to it.
All such spells that target the magus now have to penetrate an Aegis as well.

Well, whatever works in your saga is the way it works. I was trying to illustrate a way to see it that might explain how it works in mine.

Even with an Arcane Connection only gives you a bonus for Penetration, it doesn't let you automatically get around Parma, much less Magic Resistance.

Physically grabbing someone is considered an arcane connection ,
the logic being that the thing itself is the best arcane connection to itself.

I enter my lab for a month , i spend 01 pawn of Vim vis
and "fix" myself as an indefinite arcane connection to myself.
I can make use of all the Sympathetic Connections (page 84 , ArM 05)
Caster being a Blood Relative of the Caster should apply ,
as you are related to yourself by blood after all.
One can easily get a +12 or +13 Penetration Multiplier.

The immediate use i can think of is being able to (hopefully) penetrate the Aegis of a rival Covenant.
You have a number of enchanted items safely left in your Lab.
These can be activated at Arcane Connection Range to affect you.

Even if translated as shield or barrier I do not see the Parma as any thing of a certain thicknes, or as a shell. To me, as to Angafea, it permeates the whole being of the Magus, and its outer boundery is the one defined to be at a certain range from the magus. And that this further range is not just a shell in the sense that when you've passed it the Parma or MR is defunct, as in eating the pill or accepting something else being put on you. This is also apparent by the fact that any spell but Personal cast on yourself has to Penetrate (or the MR be lowered). So eating a pill or some such and then having a later activation would still have to penetrate the MR - in other words Penetration is in metaphysical rather than physical terms ( :unamused: ).

Concerning the Arcane Connection debate, then I find it a bit artificial to have something be an arcane connection to itself, such as by grapping your intended target. You might argue that while the Arcane Connection metaphysical is still connected to the Target it has to be physically detached from it. I can find no RAW justification for this, but only note that no matter how I twist and turn the idea of just grapping someone to attain AC to them, they all turn out as silly, boring or an outright death sentences to any attempt at interesting engaging scenes. Therefore I would not tolerate it as a SG.

I found this interesting, ArM5 161: Aegis of the Hearth:

"This ritual protects a covenant in the way a Parma Magica protects a magus."

Giving more weight to the "all through your body" type of Parma.

or in other words that the parma protects your metaphysical self rather than as a tangtible shield. To me it has more of a medieval ring, where as the "thin shell Parma" seems a bit sci-fi or high fantasy-like to my taste.

I agree with the second half of this more than with the Aegis first half as that may confuse people.

The Parma Magica is a Magic Sheild and I agree that it permiates ones body. So if I'm another magus and punch you with a mundane fist that fist goes through the parma.

If the magus uses magic to enhance his bodies strength for example, now we have a variant on the pink dot issue, which I tried to avoid. The 'super' magus is no longer simply punching the defending magus, he's magically punching him (if only in terms of applying damage). Because of this I beleive Parma Magica would defend against a magic punch.

Variants on this have been discussed to some degree. If a magus is simply holding the person, I suppose I would allow them to use either Touch or AC, but I would still allow, neigh insist, the defender be allowed Parma Magica to defend against the magic, be it harmful or beneficial.

We agree on this, and I know what you mean by it, but out of principle I would say that the punch does not go through the parma. As they simply do not interact, as one of them is a physical and the other a metaphysical thing.

I agree. Now the hand doing the punching has taken on a metaphysical quality. They interact and may the gods help the loser in that interaction.

I agree on the Parma working fully, but I do think that they possibility of just grabbing someone to get arcane connection and thus munchkin their penetration is sad. What about all the story potential in preparing for an encounter by making elaborate plans to get hold on a lock of hair from the archenemy, a scale from the dragon or a feather from the griffin? Tears from the princess of the realm or sighs from the mourning widow? These are the things great legends spring from - not just man-handling the antagonists collar or diving in for his barenaked feet during the climatic scene after weeks of building up tension.

Well were still in agreement. I suppose I was commenting on the situation discussed, without revealing much of my opinion. I'm not keen on this situation either. I suppose if this is an angle magi wanted to use in a campaign, it would be fair for a GM to establish that Magi are leary of physical encounters and never touch each other. This seems reasonable to me in a world where magi that touch- attack each other. Such a world would once again need locks of hair, tear drops, and other cool stuff in order for attacks to occur.

While I support your position that 'grabbing' is kind of cheap, I suppose in the interests of full disclosure I out to sight this event that occured in my campaign.

Essentially The Primus of House Tytalus (living on the edge of Twilight) summoned my character to Fudarus. He said if I do not come to Fudarus my character would be renounced. However through politics and intrigue I already knew the Primus really wanted to Renounce my character 'in person' in order to gain political clout. So my Magus was in a Catch 22.

The solution I developed for my dillema was as follows. My character went to Fudarus. He met with the Primus. In our game, the Primus of House Tytalus is treated like an Alpha Wolf and magi must prostrate themselves before him. My character did this, then asked to kiss his hand. He allowed me that 'last pleasure'.

That's when I used Creo Vim to push him into final twilight. I teleported away and argued 1)The Primus never renounced me 2)Twilight is not death, I did not kill the Primus.

For clarity, this was under Ars 4. Ars 5 establishes that such an attack IS illegal and I would have been killed for it. But under Ars 4, some desperate politique, intense bargaining, and severe concessions, allowed my character to survive and remain a standing member of House Tytalus.

The point of this story is I say I'm against such tactics, but I am GUILTY of using such tactics.

I guess I'm a munkin. Sigh... :wink:

Lets not forget this quote. :slight_smile:

Mainly because parts of how parma work don't make sence to me I'd view the longevity ritual as a special circumstance. It must be made specifically for you so it can't interact with anyone else.

If we want to get into tecnicallities why doesn't parma cause warping? It's obviously a spell since it can be dispelled (with difficulty) even if it advances as an ability.

It may be worth your while to read through the FAQ section on Parma.

I'll have to admit one situational conceit on my part, and it stems from LONG time play, and a bad assumption. foisted on me a long time ago by an ST.

Many, and I do mean many, years ago, an ST told me, and I believed, that an Arcane Connection was a virtual "ticket to ride" so to speak. That an Arcana connection allowed you to ignore just about any Hermetic magical defense a Magi could think to put up. Having one allowed you to cut through parma like it was simply not there, that in mechanical terms, it wasn't.

I still do not see, either here or in the FAQ, that Parma is a suffusing force of magic throughout the form of the Magi who has it up.

I do tend to think of the idea I suggested in term of a pipe into something, or a SABOT round When a SABOT round strikes a target, the outer shell explodes, and clears a path through the armor so that the core of the round can proceed unhindered through the target. The fist/hand is providing the "entrance", and the magic is going through that entrance by having a conduit through the armor.

A pipe analogy would be just the same really. If you spray water at a tank from a pipe, it splatters all over the tank uselessly. if you connect that pipe to the tank and pump water through it, it gets in, while water still being sprayed at the shell of the tank from another pipe still splatters everyhwere not getting in.

Since what I read from the FAQ envisions Parma in a certain way, I can't see any reason touching another Magi would not have the same results.

Though one would wonder, does Parma cause... Parma too bounce? Since it's been stated the "magical nature" of a Magi is stunted between Magi by Parma thus dealing with the Social issues, would two Magi with Parma up have issues with touching one another?

I have already stated why I don't consider this a "lame" loophole. Like I said. if an offending Magi is daft enough to go through the effort of getting THAT close to another Magi, and wants to risk life and limb to make such physical contact, while losing his Gestures component to the spell. Then he gets a little something extra for his effort.

I mean honselty, just how much would YOU trust someone who wasn't intimate with you, if they were constantly making moves to touch you every time they saw you? And that's not even in combat.

It gets worse in combat. With defensive casting, risking moving through a likely hostile battelfield, breachign whatever outer defenses magially in place the target has, and even the Grog defense a magi is likely to have. This is not something that is likely to come up often enough to be some kind of "game breaker".

It is an interesting challenge. I do however thing that it is reasonable to argue both ways - whether you prefer the "longevitied" magi to be resisted by MR or not. I prefer them not to be. I suits my preferences best.

Another interesting question. The obvious setting answer would be, that if it did, few magi would live to see old age or fewer would use it as often. Both options something that would make Bonisagus' and Trianoma's Order seem less attractive.

Possible explanations might be, that it isn't equivalent to a high magnitude, that it doenst affect the magus directly, that is more the lack of magic then the presence of it, or simply that it is a special case. Also note that magi as a special circumstance do not asweel get warping from living in a strong magic aura or from their Familiar bonds.

As a sidenote, a magus Forms also offer resistance - and that is an effect more constantly than the Parma - at it doesnt warp either.

In that relation

Prystus, I disagree completely with your post above. It is really just a case of YMMV, but to keep the discussion going instead of just ending it with a boring "we disagree", I will argue my preferences.

First of all, your pipe and SABOT analogy is good and very clear, but.... I think it is not applicable. You are using metaphors that are in terms of physics and kinetics, the Parma Magica is neither of those. It is metaphysical. You cannot use the reasoning of one on the other. Whether you percieve the Parma as a shell or a profusion, the RAW are very clear on the matter of whether you can pipe through it by touching the Target. On whether you need to penetrate (p. 85): "Spells cast with Touch range, even if cast by the maga on herself, do".

And this is not only a case of whether you prefer magi to manhandling each other in combat, this influences all daily interaction of magi. Or if a magus is left battered and broken after a battle or some other injury, this has importance to whether his sodalis can penetrate his parma with their needed healing spells (as an unconscious or incapacitated magus cannot suppres his parma).

Finally MR, Penetration and AC have really changed a lot, especially with 5th, over the last years. I believe it is much more streamlined, and most of all - it is much more mythical!