Magical Focus: Regios (ones)? Is it viable?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

First i would like to say hello to everyone!
This is my very first post here on the forums. I'm currently planning a character for a future saga, that will kickstart this summer if everything goes as planned.

I have some questions regarding the virtue Major / Minor Magical Focus that I would like to hear your thoughts on.

I'm currently planning a Verditius mage, that will mostly be a lab rat - sitting in his study with his magical items. As the saga progress I'm thinking of getting him oriented towards hermetic architecture and maybe celestial magic (both from mysteries revised). At this point im considering what virtues and abilities will suit this kind of concept best, and what a suitable magical focus could be.

I have considered to get a focus on affecting regios (or regiones - I have never quite understood the difference).. In your oppinion, is such a focus viable? Or is it in any way too powerful or weak? Do you guys think it should be a major or minor magical focus?

What I'm considering is a Minor magical focus on affecting magical (only) regios. Would this focus also apply to vis extraction?

I know these are questions I should ask my storyguide (and that answers will vary with different troupes/sagas), but I just want to hear some experienced peoples oppinions first :smiley:

Thanks in advance for your help and thoughts!

Vitruvius

2

Regiones , page 189
Regiones is plural , Regio is singular.

From an ST perspective , i would look at stacking options.
Verditius Runes (page 127 , HoH:MC) will stack with a Focus , allowing an Art score to be tripled.

Magical Focus (Transforming Regiones) looks like a Major Virtue.
Magical Focus (Magical Regiones) could be a Minor Virtue.

TMRE has the Aura Magic Guidelines on page 100.
(some of the enchantments are very high level
and using Virtues in this way might be a reasonable way to achieve that)

Either Magical Focus will likely only apply to using the Hermetic Architecture Virtue (page 97) ,
at least so far as i can determine at the moment.

3

Thanks Ravenscroft, a storyguide's reply was what I was looking for :smiley:

However, your reply made me a little confused (probably because english isn't my native language, or because I'm kinda new to the rules) just exactly what do you mean by this?

Are you saying that a minor magical focus: magical regio won't be legit in a Creo Vim Vis extraction lab total?(wich is kinda strange since the Magi is milking the magical regio/aura for Vis)

And will I only be able to use it with Hermetic Architecture? What about spells trying to manipulate / discover magical regiones? (travel between, detecting layers, protecting against creatures aligned with etc.)

Again, thanks for fast and constructive reply

Vitruvius

4

Two things are going on here, V.

1, the rules:
In the basic book, Magical Foci give the following benefit "...When you cast a spell or generate a Lab Total, add the lowest applicable Art twice..."

So, that would cover investigating Regio with Spontaneous Spells, and creating Spells/Items that relate to Regio/ones, and any other Lab Total involving Regio.

It's a judgement call by your SG, but at face value, that certainly sounds like Vis Extraction involves Regio (but see below). A "Vis" Focus might be more appropriate, but that doesn't mean this wouldn't work as well.

The 2nd consideration, however (and not the lesser!), is game balance- with some of the ploys R mentioned above, x3 is starting to get pretty large, even to the "lesser" Art - is that appropriate to your saga, and ok with your fellow players/SG? This will add to the determination of whether Vis Extraction should be included in the Virtue, and whether it is Major or Minor.

A "Major" focus is "smaller than a single Art", a "Minor" is "slightly narrower than a single Tech/Form combination"- so the question is... "Is this narrower than (the equivalent of) a single T/F combo?"

As far as I can imagine, the only Form would be Vim. Regione are things of magic, so no other Form would be involved. All 5 Techniques could be, but "most" Vim magic deals with... well, Magic itself, not magical geography.

While it's powerful, it's also very narrowly focussed, and that's the definition. Imo, it also would "help" a saga (as a "problem solving" aspect) more than abuse it or cause problems (I hope), so I, as a SG, would allow it in general.

As for the Vis Extraction, simple math tells me that if you double the "lower" art, that would probably add ~about~ +10 to the Lab Total, or +2 pawns, regardless of other Virtues taken - strong, but hardly unbalancing.

I'd want to talk to the Troupe about it, and it would depend on whether I thought you were reasonable, and I'd caution you that at some point he'll need to go outside to actually visit those regione, but I'd allow it.

5

Vis Extraction works with any magical aura, not specifically regiones. While regiones do have auras, they aren't the same thing. So Vis Extraction would be a priori out of a regio focus's scope.

6

The Hermetic Alchemy minor virtue (page 39 , TMRE) also covers improved extraction of Vis.

Alchemical Vis Extraction Lab Total = Creo + Vim + Intelligence + Magic Theory + Aura Modifier + Shape and Material Bonuses*

Vim Vis Extracted = one-tenth (round up) of Vis Extraction Lab Total
Form Vis Extracted = one-twentieth (round up) of Vis Extraction Lab Total

*Shape and Material bonuses and Verditius Runes are limited by Magic Theory score

Stacking options are something to consider for the ST.
It is probably a good idea to point them out early , rather than have him/her discover them later on.
Vis availability being Saga dependent.

Vis extraction for a Verditius with a Magical Aura Focus and this virtue , would be based on :
Creo + Vim + Intelligence + Magic Theory + Aura Modifier + Shape and Material Bonuses + Craft Ability + Philosophiae
this becomes
Creo + Vim x02 + Intelligence + Magic Theory x03 + Aura Modifier + Craft Ability
(assuming Vim is the lowest Art score)

7

I'd say the minor focus: Regiones would be possible. It would only apply to spells that affect a regio, which would pretty much limit it to the hermetic arcitecture effects, the intellego vim to see regiones, and rego vim to enter/leave an open regio.

However, since you mentioned using it for vis extraction (which could be considered a minor focus in it's own right), I assume you intended it to be able to affect other activities in a regio?

8

Ah- true enough, my bad. I recant my heresies, and submit to the ruling of the Order.

As F says, "Auras" are diff from Regone, and so, if what you want is "Focus, Magic Aura", not "any regione"- that is, if you don't care about Divine/Fae/Infernal, etc.

9

Ah, so much to consider :smiley:

After looking up your various references I realize that my first intended virtue minor magical focus: Magical Regiones will be quite limited in usefulness (considering my character concept).

As Fruny pointed out, Vis Extraction works with auras, not regiones specifically. They are not the same thing.

If one continues the debate with Frunys argument in mind, that pretty much leaves a minor magical focus: Magical Regiones useless in "Hermetic Architecture Aura Boosting Enchantments" - it will however apply to the "Hermetic Architecture Manipulate Regio Enchantments" (TMRE 99-101).

The focus will also apply to intellego and rego vim spells used to travel between layers, and various probing spells.

With this in mind, I think that my minor magical focus: Magical Regiones is too weak compared to other foci, considering that it will mostly only be useful IF my character ever gets into Hermetic Architecture Mystery (exept the modest (probably unneccesary) bonus to intellego, and rego effects on regiones).

This makes me conclude with the following options:

A Minor Focus: Regiones - applying to above stated effects, however not limited to magical regiones, (i. e. will get focus if attempting to discover / travel in other types of regiones). This will not affect Vis Extraction

A Minor Focus: Affecting Auras - will apply to the aura boosting effects in Hermetic Architecture, and will be applicable to the Vis Extraction Lab total. (With a Hermetic Breakthrough it may also apply to Perdo Vim effects used to supress auras too :stuck_out_tongue:) This is not limited to magical auras.

Another option would be to create a Major Focus on Hermetic Architecture, that would apply to all the architecture enchantments and spells that involves architecture. However, this needs a good explanation in the character background (since Hermetic Architecture after all is a Mystery)

Do you agree with my reasoning so far? What do you think of my suggestions on new virtues?

Again, thanks for all the constructive comments! Im happy to be a part of your friendly community!

Vitruvius

(P. S. Heard anything on the TMRE / HoH:MC addon for Metacreator?)

10

Checked here?

11

A focus on affecting auras wouldn't apply to vis extraction, simply as it doesn't really affect the aura...
Ordinary spellcasting does more to affect auras (since continued spellcasting will generate an aura over time...)

IMHO vis extraction is a minor focus of it's own.... It is after all a major part of the CrVi area, and minor foci are supposed to be more limited than a single Tech+form combo...

Foci on hermetic architecture does seem strange - could be a virtue that the cult initiates... Typically requiring the sacrifice of the old focus...

12

i would apply it to vis extraction as well. After all, it is a lab total (vis extraction). Basically the dude is more profficient at doing stuff in magical auras

However, a bonus on auras, that doubles ALL your spellcasting while you are in the aura seems a little bit extreme (it would apply to all your lab totals, in practical terms).

I would make it apply to things that mess with the aura itself, like sacred architecture or vis extraction. If you are not messing with the aura but only "bathing in the aura" (styudying vis in the lab or casting generic -non aura specific- spells in the aura, for example) it would not apply.

Cheers,

Xavi

13

Spellcasting is creating auras (from nothing, or adding to) over time, affecting is about manipulating something that exists(extracting, boosting, surpressing etc.) - at least this is how I thought about it..

In my own oppinion Vis Extraction is per definition about affecting the aura. You are tapping into the magical environment (wich by definition has to include a magical aura), making some of the magic of the aura "solid"(physical form) - at least that's my understanding by reading the arm5 rulebook p 94. If the word Affecting is ill suited to describe this I could go for something else, maybe manipulating or something similiar..

That you need to be in a magical aura to extract Vis and the word EXTRACT in itself supports the view that a magical focus on (magical) auras should apply to vis extraction.

However, as Xavi points out it certainly only applies to spells and lab totals dealing with the aura, NOT to anything you do while inside an aura (an insane boost that probably would require ALL of a characters virtues.. if at all possible)

And about Extracting Vis as a minor focus on its own like Ulf wrote:

This will in my oppinion be flawed compared to other minor foci. A character is only allowed to have one foci ever, but he can have multiple personal Vis Virtues that do NOT keep him from doing anything else for a season. (ofc, this is utterly saga dependant, but Personal Vis scales with Vis availablity - actually, if it wasn't for Vis Extraction beeing a magical focus, and thus occupying the one magical focus a character can have I would say these two effects are quite balanced in game terms..)

However, an alternative could be a magical focus about Affecting Vis that both included extraction, relocation, and purifying (of infernal vis). A minor focus on extraction (lab total) only is too weak in my eyes.

Depending on the saga, I could accept ruling out the extraction bonus of the aura focus based on the argument of game balance. However, I do not think a bonus to affecting auras would be much of an imbalance, at least not the way I intended it..

Thanks for the discussion so far, that goes to all contributors! As I'm kinda new to the game I really appreciate discussing the character generation aspect with you! At least I feel that this is constructive :smiley:

Vitruvius

14

The rules explicitely state that you can't take a Magic Focus in a lab activity, of which Vis Extraction is one.

I concur. Affecting auras is going to be difficult regardless.

Also keep in mind that "instant-death spells" is a valid minor focus...