magical senses + synesthasia ?

Does this concept work (I'm thinking about an NPC Quaesitor)

The character has a high intellego score and he uses this to spont InXX spells with the sensory target of touch.

He also has a spell and/or enchanted device that allows him to see tactile species.

Can he then get the benefit of target vision intellego spells while only casting them with target touch?

Magic cannot improve range, would i say.

The range is not increased, only the way he perceives them. So he must be at touch range to "see" the tact images. Not very useful, I would say. I think that the talisman casting something like wizard's boost so he can cast the spells with added power (and so, with added magnitudes for a T:vision) would be more useful here.

But if the concept is cool feel totally free to bend the rules to fit the character. :slight_smile:


I'm not changing range I'm changing target.

I'm not following you at all here. I'm not talking about using muto vim spells and certainly (without bending the rules or understanding the mystery of the consummate talisman) muto vim spells in items can't target effects that do not come from the same item.

Let me restate the question in a specific format so it's more clear

The magus casts an intellego animal spell shiver of the lycanthrope (p.122). this spell allows him to feel a shiver whenever he touches a lycanthrope.

The Magus then casts a spell Feeling Eyes

Now,while both spells are active, do werewolves look "shivery" or not? If the answer is no, would it make a difference if I added a vim requisite to feeling eyes?

I would say that contact with tactile species isn't what defines the hermetic range of touch. As such, no range enhancement.

What is cannon regarding amplifying one's voice to enhance voice range. I'm not 100% sure at all but I seem to remember that this was also ruled invalid somewhere.

Sure, the werewolf should look shivery. Sounds good to me, Erik! :slight_smile:

I hadn't fully understood you, quite correct there! :slight_smile:

The problem is that we are in the same area than when we were discussing the detection of invisible guys, more or less. How does shivery look? I would say that Touch cannot be ranged.

Of course this is magic, and if your troupe agrees, you can pretty much see whatever you want. it is magic. It is the same reasoning that we apply to invisibility stuff :slight_smile: Per the RAW it does not work, but it sounds fine, so go ahead with it.


Personnally I like the idea that touch isn't ranged. The hermetic (metaphisical) significances of touching someone go beyond the mere interaction of species. That is, while it's certainly true (in setting) that 'touch' species transfer during the act to touching someone, that's not all that is happening.

I would say no, on a pretty similar ground as Thumper. If you´re not physically touching, its not touch range any more. It would be something like claiming that Personal range allows casting on someone else because you´re using a spell to directly feel as if you were them.

I think a new Target would be a good idea for it, at Voice target level, because i dont think the rules prevents it as such, but allowing it as "Touch" target, ghhaahh, bad idea...

I don't have my book in front of me, but we're not talking about R: Touch, right? I thought we were talking about T: Touch. What are the spell parameters for Shiver of the Lycanthrope?

Shiver is RDT Per Conc Touch


That's what I thought. So this isn't about magic affecting people at R: Touch, it's about whether a magus can make himself able to perceive what something feels like from a distance. Seems totally cool to me! Sounds like a very interesting magus who comes up with spells like this.

Off topic, but btw,

Congratulations to Erik Tyrrell for having ascended to the rank of Archmagus :smiley:

OK,... missed that.

So I guess for me the salient question is whether the reception of touch species is enough to qualify for target touch. Or another way to put it, is there anything beyond the reception of such species embodied in the hermetic (metaphysical) definition of target touch.

I'm not sure. Have to give it some thought. My first instinct is to say, by Aristotelian thinking it works fine, but that hermetic magic (necessarily) considers mystical factors beyond such thoughts. Put the gift in an academic and when he or she does hermetic magic they they are employing factors beyond Aristotelian thought (while incorporating much of it of course). Such factors could define the hermetic target of touch beyond the Aristotelian propagation of species. I certainly think this is the case for range touch. I'm leaning toward this again for target touch.

I think the only reason I'm less certain on target touch is because the details of species and such are so well covered in the cannon. I suppose from a style point of view it may come down to how 'sciency' (in a Medieval context) do you want hermetic magic to 'feel' in your saga. The 'science' part of the paradigm has been decently covered in cannon and this, I think, may lead to tunnel vision with regard to the 'science' in 'magic'. Most RPGers are designers by nature... we design characters, settings, spells, etc. The design mode of thinking tends to be one of figuring out the possibilities within given constraints. Given how well the 'science' part of the paradigm has been covered the temptation is to use it as a constraint consideration in design without enough consideration to non-Aristotelian factors, of which hermetic magic necessarily has a considerable amount. Of course this is fine if this is what you want stylistically anyway. It can certainly be fun to wrap your head in paradigm while figuring how something would/should work. For myself, however, I think I'm of the opinion that these non-Aristotelian factors, while necessarily not as well defined, are nonetheless important parts of hermetic magic and that, as such, bending hermetic concepts with Aristotelian thinking alone probably misses enough non-Aristotelian mystical factors to complicate the effort,... most likely to the point of not being hermetically workable.

Ok,... that was some meandering of my thoughts as I was thinking them, but I hope it makes sense.

I'm jumping in late to the discussion here, sorry. My take is that InXX spells with Target: Touch are (by definition) spells that enhance the touch sense of the maga. In particular, I don't consider these spells to affect regular tactile species at all; rather the spell gives the maga the power to receive touch sensations from information other than mundane tactile species. I don't know how the essential lycanthrope-ness of a werewolf emanates from him, but a maga under the influence of Shiver of the Lycanthrope receives the information as if new tactile species, corresponding to that lycanthrope-ness, were being emitted from him. But the thing that's been magically altered is the maga's sense of touch, not the tactile species in the world.

The point being: under this interpretation, a spell that allows a maga to see tactile species is irrelevant to an InXX spell with Target: Touch.

Thanks. I made a tactlessly self congratulatory 2000th post right here

I posted something in this thread ... I thought ... can't see it when I read the thread, but it never updates as an already-read thread.

Same here, i just found that i can see whats written by replying and looking at the thread below the reply window.
Last post i can see normally is Thumpers. No other thread seems to behave the same at least.


I made a tacky self congratulatory 2000th post here: