Magically copied books

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

That is not quite true.

Magic can be dangerous, but so is a lot of other things.
You don't need to have any particular intelligence to understand any given text. Depending on the exact subject many of them can be used by ungifted people.
Magical texts aren't exactly secret and, except for texts on Parma Magica, there is no rule as such that that they should be not be spread
It is not all that easy to create exact copies of a book with magic. In most cases it is a lot easier and cheaper to just employ mundane scribes.

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22

The Superb Scrinium from TME needs a verrry high Finesse person to operate properly. Such a person is far more difficult to find than a skilled scribe with Magic Theory 1 or 2.

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I don't think anyone is arguing that scribes do not corrupt texts... but at the same time "corrupt text" has a pretty heavy definition in game terms:

A corrupted text is useless.

What you mention (for example, in regards to Medieval Bibles having mistakes) seems more like the quality drop due to copying fast.

Also, many of these books (and the Bible in particular) were copyied over and over and over, which is usually outside of the timeframe we are looking at.

It's possible that in 1800's the copy of the copy of the copy of Bonisagus original work will be so flawed that a magus can't effectively study from it, but for a book copied once or twice, I don't think tracking this kinda of occasional mistake is worth the effort (mistakes due to copying fast are easy to account for, however).

The rules as written say that a mundane can copy a book on a supernatural ability as long as:

  • he has a score 3 in the language;
  • he has minimum knowledge (either Realm Lore or Magic Theory).
    • I'd say, on this last point, that it's also reasonable to require some sort of score to copy a book on an academic subject, but since all scribes must know how to write (and thus all have a score of at least 1 in Artes Liberales) this seem to already be covered.

This doesn't really mean the mundane learns anything about the books content (except, about it's existance), and hardly constitutes a violation of the code.

If you want to further penalize mundane scribes copying magical texts, I'd suggest a minimum score in the relevant knowledge ability to avoid a drop in quality. Say, quality is capped by 5x relevant score? Or maybe, max quality equals 6+3 x relevant score?

Note however that this would have impact not only on mundanes, but also on magi copying books.

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24

Several wrongs does not make one thing right

If we assume that it is difficult to make exact copies with magic why do we assume that is is easier or at least just as easy with mundane scribes? We know that scribes make errors. Is it implied that magical facsimiles contains more errors in Transforming Mythic Europe? We know that copying texts was slow both during the Middle Ages and in ArM5. Why bother with slow stuff when you have a fast alternative?

25

It might be fair to call for a Finesse roll in this case. But why would it be easier (though much slower) to do this by hand than to do it with magic? You can still cast The Copyist's Critical Eye at the end of your work to check your result. Why bother with scribing for months when you can copy a whole book in just one or two hours?

26

The Dark Quill of Xerox PeAn10 (Req In)
Creates a dark imprint upon vellum identical to the text on a page that the magus touches. The vellum needs to be of the same size as the page copied. Several pages can be copied in this way as long as the magus concentrates. A Int+Finesse roll 9+ is required for black and white copies and higher for color prints.

This spell is usually followed up with a The Copyist's Critical Eye

27

I think a few basic assumptions are missingin this conversation.

The suplement Covenants introduces, on pg. 49, the concept of Rego Craft magic: using Rego (and the appropriate form) to replicate/substitute mundane work. The rules presented in that book say that this requires a Finesse roll, and the EF of this finesse roll depends on how much work you are doing, but it is, as a baseline, 3 points higher than what it would be to make the thing using the mundane ability. Drastically increasing the speed is another thing that rises the EF.

For an example, assume that making a wooden bowl requires a Craft roll of 3 or higher and takes 1 day. Using an hypotetical spell "The Fast Carpenter" would take a moment, and require an EF 6 (base 3, +3 for doing it with Rego craft).

Making as many bowls as a mundane carpenter makes in a month would require another version of the spell with T: Group and enough size modifiers (because you are operating on several pieces of wood) and the EF would be 9 (a months work is +6 instead of the standard +3).

Making as many bowls as a carpenter can make in a season is a +9 on the EF. And a year's work is a +12 on top of the standard.

For another example, if one carpenter could make a house in one year and the EF for that is 6, Rego craft can make a house in an instant, provided you have all the materials at hand, and the EF would be 15.

Failure means the item produced by the spell is flawed (eg, all your bowls end up cracked). A botch means it's flawed in a non-obvious manner, and will likely fail whenever the Murphy's law deems it fit.

Those are the rules from Covenants, and they have been applied over many other supplements. You can disagree with them, ignore them, and overrule them... But as long as we are talking about what core examples exist for replicating mundane work with magic, that's how the rules treat it.

Now, Transforming Mythic Europe makes an assumption for the EF to reproduce a book according with it's quality. It gives a few approaches, and details one that uses an enchanted item to make multiple castings instead of tryig to reproducing a whole book in one go. It also assumes that the EF of copying a single page is related to the quality of the book: lower quality, lower EF, higher quality, higher EF. Don't forget to add the modifier for making a day's work in a few instants.

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28

EDIT: RafaelB beat me to the typing and with actual examples. I didn't bother to look up the rules and went form memory on my phone.

The specific rules for Finesse make it harder. Covenants has the rules for Rego Craft magic. Finesse is by default +3 ease factor over Craft. This gets higher the more time it'd take - I believe a day of work is the base +3, a month is +6, a season +9... so an EF 9 copying would turn into EF 18

29

Another thing that it seems it's not going through: when people say that it's hard to copy things by magic, what they are actually saying is that it's not a straightforward proccess.

What you want is to duplicate knowledge. There's no direct way to do that, no spell to create or replicate information. The options presented in TME try to bypass that by using a combination of several Arts to essentially scan a book and then reproduce it using Rego (and even that is a bit iffy IMO, but I digress). Duplicating a book with Creo rituals is likely possible, but would require vis, and vis is a resource most magi would rather use somewhere else.

So the hard part of creating or copying books with magic is that it's a convoluted proccess, time intensive even for magi (who need either to enchant the devices or invent the spells and make the whole proccess themselves) and requires a high finesse. Don't forget that by repeatedly casting the necessary spells the magus risks a lot of botching (IMO magically copying a page from an important book from which you will be studying later is always a stress roll).

So, for most magi I'd expect them to think something in the lines of "why go through all that when you can pick any mundane scribe, give him a Magic Theory tractatus and have him copying the books for you? It will take a bit more time, but you don't actually need a lot of books, and your time and effort is better spent elsewhere."

But if you rule that mundanes cannot copy books on magic, either because of a legal limitation or because they just lack the ability to do so, then I'd think more magi will start to think on how to copy books, and we might see the printing press arriving early than 1440 in Mythic Europe.

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30

When I say 'things are harder if done by magic', I'm specifically thinking in game-ist terms. The ease factor target number is higher for Finesse than Craft.

You're right that it also generally involves things being more convoluted, but most of my players seem to find convolutions fun.

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31

Our Covenant in my Saga actually is engaged in the book trade. We have five Scribes, two Illuminators, two Book Binders, two Percamenarius and two Ink Makers. All the pairs are a Master & Apprentice. We have Carpenters and Leather Workers who produce materials that can be used for book covers in additional to their other duties. The Scribes have "Labs" that have been built up to a specialty in Text +12. Our Workshops are all Innovation +3, though Materials is +0 or +1 mostly. We have all sorts of enchanted items to help out the varies workers (some posted in this thread and my Covenant thread in Post a Day, though some newer stuff is missing), including a powerful invested device to check for copy errors.

Given all of that, how effective are we at cranking out books? Our production would be that of a boutique or bespoke shop today. Our maximum production is ~15 books a year without "copying quickly" (which we never do). Our maximum quality is the same as Core, even if you use the extended rules (Cov, p.88) baring Mystical Resonance, non-magic subject bonus, or HR modifiers. The only real advantage we have is that our Scribes copy Summa at the higher rate of 10 + P:Scribe rather than 6 + P:Scribe. Our books have exceptional "physical quality", which is not the same as the Quality score for learning from them. They are beautiful, featuring different metal leaf & many inks, and more resistant to damage.

Without any HR, the only advantage our complex setup has is an increase in physical quality of the books produced, possibly an increase in the speed of copying Summa (if your group allows Scribes to have a non-hermetic lab) and "role play" material. The Monastery on the eastern shore of our island produces more Bibles per year than books we produce. Any Saga with the same number of Scribes (with enough supporting Illuminators and Book Binders) could produce roughly the same amount of books as we do if your only goal was just copying books. They could actually easily beat our total, if raw output was their goal, without the investment of Vis and pounds.

The biggest reason we did it is that it was a driving part of our "story". Many game sessions dealt with it, directly or indirectly. We hunted down skilled workers and got them to take employment with us. Many counsel meetings were held discussing it. It has served as a Vis and silver sink. Our Covenant has gained a positive reputation for the "quality" of the books we sell.

If anyone is wondering about HR we use, here are the cliff notes.

  • We use the rules from City & Guild for if Scribe/Illumination/Binding gains a "Superior Quality" bonus rather than just having an Ability of 6+. Low totals can result in -1 "Poor Quality" flaws.
  • Any book, not just magic ones, can use Resonant Materials. Bonuses are tiered by "bought" (+1) or "gained in play" (+2). Clarification requires a minimum score in the subject.
  • Tractatus may be written as a commentary on a Summa (with some rules on effect).
  • Glossing requires a minimum level of ability in the subject of the book.
  • The "Quickly Copied" flaw can be removed, but requires someone with sufficient score in the subject to have studied it and then spend the same time as it would take them to write it making a copy without the flaw. This is time intensive, requires a Magus (for magic text), and they don't get the benefit of the higher Quality.
  • "Exemplars" are a tiny version of a book from which a full size version is meant to be produced. They have -3 quality, but a standard copy can be produced from one. They are produced at the "copied quickly" speed. However they are rarely used for selling books covered by "Cow & Calf Oath" (considered poor form) and never used for traded or gifted books (this is like me gifting you instructions).
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32

Well, if magic really is that dangerous - the more reason not to use it for such compartively trivial things as copying books.

It is easier for the mages. They don't have to do any of the work if they can foist it off to mundane scribes.

You seem to assume that minor errors in the copies would be a big problem. I beg to differ. Most of the time they would not be. Labtexts are not exact instructions on how to cast a spell or create an item - they are descriptions of how the author invented the spell or made the item which can help a reader to re-invent the spell or re-create the item, but it won't be an exact copy. Any minor errors would be detected during the labratory work, and not all of them will be from the copy process.

As for errors in texts on the Arts, I don't see why that would cause more problems than errors in textbooks on other subjects - and there are errors in just about every textbook ever published both in the past and now.

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33

Errors that occurred when the Bible was copied by hand were actually considered a problem even during Antiquity. If the early church had some means to avoid this I am sure they would be happy. Spreading the "wrong" word could actually turn you away from Gods grace. There was even a special demon, Titivillus, who specialised in corrupting texts. I am not saying that the Church in ME is considering magical copying but they would surely have used the printing press if it had been invented earlier.

It was also believed at the time that ritual magic needed to be carried out to the letter. Any small error would destroy the ritual (and create an explanation for any bad result). We don't know how Hermetic magic works but to me neglecting printed errors in magical texts seems anachronistic.

IF, however, it really doesn't matter if magical texts includes some errors a magus would still prefer a spell doing the job rather than a scribe as it is much faster.

34

Are we to assume that magically turning yourself into another person with all his clothes and gear is easier and faster than magically copying a text on a page? I find that assumption a bit too gamey myself...

35

Taking the shape of another person precisely. with clothes, quirks, voice and all is an issue of one or more quite demanding Finesse rolls. Look this up for the spells your magus uses.

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36

I am not denying that. I am just wondering why it would be harder to copy simple letters.

37

Best compare TME p.100 The Copyist's Puissant Quill with the Finesse requirements from ArM5 p.143 Imaginem Spells.

38

Doesn't matter much, since you don't do spells directly out of books in Ars Magica. A labtext of a spell is not direct instructions to be followed to the letter. A labtext is design information used to invent your own version of the spell.

39

Last time I checked you could actually cast spells from texts in ArM. Anyway magical copying would be preferred to mundane copying as I see it. The restriction of magical copying as I see it comes from game balance and perhaps from a ambition for a more medieval feel of the game. It does not really makes sense to me... spells that mimic a printing press is really something that magic should be able to do. Imagine a monk dreaming of a magical pen that could do the work for him. A magical item that could copy text would be the first item to invent for a Verditius.

There are spells that actually are quite powerful and do complex things in ArM. Nerfing a spell that copies text and not spells that wipe out armies is a bit odd. I would also imagine that a mundane scribe would do a bad job with copying a spell text as his ability in Magical Theory does not really make sense to a guy without a gift. And a magus simply does not have the time to copy books. Mundanes would be good for just assisting the magus in his work, though.

40

Only from specially created casting tablets, and those you can't learn spells from.
It is not possible to cast a spell directly from a regular lab text.