magus wants to lose his gift - advice?

I am sorry but I dont really understand the question, can you elaborate?

actually, as I consider it, an infernalist might be able to steal the Gift... it isn't specifically in the guidelines, but it could be house ruled under consumption.

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I would totally suggest a demon that offers to take his gift away. "What do I want in return? Nothing. I just want you to not have it anymore."
Sudden moral quandary. (Plus then the demon can give it to his servant, who starts casting powerful magic with the sigil of the one who lost his gift.)


I like the "I want you to not have it anymore", but I also think that a demon would still be unsatisfied with that :slight_smile:

It would throw in something along the line "And I also want you not to be happy about it, so I would not do it for free". Greed is a sin...

It seems to me the magic option probably isn't right for this player but the idea you came up with of visiting your own microcosm to fight and try to remove this essential part of yourself that probably doesn't want to be removed is amazing. Part of my love of it is, in the base rules, getting to one's microcosm is not well known so the idea that this person is spending long hours studying tomes about magic theory and lore, maybe studying Vim and Perdo, to figure out how to get there and how to defeat/destroy/remove his own gift seems truly brilliant to me and I might steal that idea for a future character goal.

Side note: Along the lines of Amazons or Finding a Criamon on the Path of Strife, some of the Settuten from BS&S have a power than can destroy the gift though it might be close to mechanically impossible for one to do it depending on his art and ability scores, it's fairly easy for one skilled in that supernatural ability to remove the gift of a newborn child and gets much harder once they learn an ability or have their arts opened. Though merely finding a hedge or hermetic wizard who can help seems the least interesting option.

Sorry I have no ideas for the faerie or divine plans.

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Oh.. I'm not suggesting the Demon just makes him Gift-less for free. I suggest the Demon takes the Gift, and gives it to someone else. He doesn't need to tell the player that. Plus, dealing with demons is pretty sinful in it's own, and pushing for additional sin might make the person back away. Small Steps down to Hell.


My take is that the Divine route would be very very tricky.

Essentially the Magus is saying that "this burden is too great, can I have respite?". If they feel that they are treated too well because of the gift, then take the gift as an instruction to make life better for other people! Use this insight and perspective to help alleviate others suffering.

Out of charcter this is not helpful advice, but I feel the Divine attitude would be pretty much "suck it up".



Founder Mercere accidentally destroyed his Gift. Perhaps his House has insight into how this happened.

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Actually it was well known that it was the fault of Bonisagus.

Problem is, it is a High Crime for a Hermetic Magus to destroy the magical power of another member of the Order. So even if other Hermetic magi know of a way to destroy The Gift, they can't help you unless they want to be Marched.

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well they can offer advice, but that's about it.

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Interesting thought. Can a mage be prosecuted for destroying their own Gift?

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"I will not deprive nor attempt to deprive any member of the Order of his magical power. I will not slay nor attempt to slay any member of the Order, except in justly executed and formally declared Wizard's War. I hereby understand that Wizard's War is an open conflict between two magi who may slay each other without breaking this oath, and that should I be slain in a Wizard's War, no retribution shall fall on he who slays me."

That does not exclude yourself. I took it from the web, so it might be wrong compared to ArM5. I do not have the books with me right now, so serf's parma, but IIRC the code has not changed much between editions.

the magus in question would still have knowledge of parma magica, so yes, I think that would be automatic marching.

Thanks Xavi for looking that one up. I have been wondering for some time, but I have been too lazy.

If, OTOH you strike a deal with a faerie/angel/demon to remove the Gift, you enter a grey area where you might just successfully defend your case.

However, you cannot leave the Order, certainly not as long as you know Parma Magica, and technically not even if you PeMe your Parma knowledge. Thus, you would need to find some provision to stay in the Order without the Gift. Even though there is precedence, that remains controversial.

The precedent would be Mercere.


Did the Larta magi disappear in 5ed?


There is also a difference between losing your Gift and removing it from yourself. The latter suggests some sort of opposition to the idea of the order, unless you believed you had the False Gift or something. Taking up holy orders after stripping away your own Gift would be recommended...especially if you aren't looking for a failed apprentice type role.

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They are still around in a very low-key way - there's a reference in Guardians of the Forest (pg 121) to Hildegard of Bingen having been admitted as one. I have a feeling there's another reference somewhere as well.

They're not in the obvious places (e.g. Houses of Hermes: Societates Jerbiton chapter, Art & Academe, City and Guild).

Primus Johannes of Criamon, mentioned in HoH:MC, page 56?